Discussion:
[jOrgan-user] Trendline Synthesis
Thomas Beck
2017-06-13 13:38:22 UTC
Permalink
For those of you who are interested in synthesizing pipe sounds, here is a
link to an article by Colin Pykett about a new technique called trendline
synthesis.


http://www.pykett.org.uk/trendline-synthesis-new-music-synthesis-technique.htm


Near the bottom of the article is a link to software which creates WAV
files.

From the article:
"...a free 'starter toolkit' has been put together whose main component is
a program which enables a spectrum to be generated once the four parameters
described above have been defined. The spectrum is displayed on the
monitor just as in the examples shown earlier, and it can optionally be
saved for later use. Also as described earlier, the corresponding sound
sample in the form of a Windows WAV file can be generated and saved. The
WAV file contains embedded loop start and end points which are calculated
automatically, thus the sample can be auditioned immediately in a wide
range of sound samplers and wave editors without requiring the user to
fiddle about searching for loop points. In addition to this program,
several utility applications are also included for convenience."
Aaron Laws
2017-06-13 18:25:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Beck
For those of you who are interested in synthesizing pipe sounds, here is a
link to an article by Colin Pykett about a new technique called trendline
synthesis.
http://www.pykett.org.uk/trendline-synthesis-new-music-
synthesis-technique.htm
Near the bottom of the article is a link to software which creates WAV
files.
It would be fun to create a GUI for modeling synthesized samples, and be
able to change them on the fly while playing jorgan. Do you know of any
such thing? What sort of interest is there in such an application?

In Christ,
Aaron Laws
Thomas Beck
2017-06-13 21:16:21 UTC
Permalink
Hi Aaron,

If you follow the link, it takes you to an article discussing the technique
and includes a simple command line app that creates a graphic based on the
parameters used to synthesize the sound. It then gives you the option of
creating a "syn" file which you can process in your own app if you want to
write one. The file structure is described in a text file. You can also
generate a WAV file from the spectrum you created with the app.

You should check out the article and the app. As well, all of the articles
on the site are very interesting and make excellent reading for VPO and
pipe organ enthusiasts.
Post by Aaron Laws
Post by Thomas Beck
For those of you who are interested in synthesizing pipe sounds, here is
a link to an article by Colin Pykett about a new technique called trendline
synthesis.
http://www.pykett.org.uk/trendline-synthesis-new-music-synth
esis-technique.htm
Near the bottom of the article is a link to software which creates WAV
files.
It would be fun to create a GUI for modeling synthesized samples, and be
able to change them on the fly while playing jorgan. Do you know of any
such thing? What sort of interest is there in such an application?
In Christ,
Aaron Laws
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John Reimer
2017-06-13 21:14:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Beck
For those of you who are interested in synthesizing pipe sounds, here is a
link to an article by Colin Pykett about a new technique called trendline
synthesis.
Tom,

Thank you for drawing our attention to this very recent article of Colin
Pykett’s, which is a development of an earlier one (but also quite recent).
Colin’s website has long been a marvelous source of information and sanity
about all types of pipe organs and pipe organ substitutes. I was fascinated
to read the earlier one, as I realised that I had been using his trendlines
for many years (without using that term) in my attempts to classify organ
sounds, all based on harmonic analysis of actual recordings. It was second
nature to use logarithmic graph paper because of my engineering background.
I was plotting straight lines indeed!

What Colin is proposing in his latest article could be of great use to those
of us who want to explore the possibilities open to us in tonal synthesis.
When I first became involved in jOrgan some years ago, synthesis was the
only real course open to many of us, but now that developments in computer
resources has gone ahead in the way it has, I have no personal interest in
synthetic sounds any more, because of the musical satisfaction to be gained
(by me, at least) by using well-produced recorded samples. Having said that,
I was pleased to see the common sense being shown by Colin in the article,
in questioning what he obviously regards as undue complication in some
programs which offer high quality pipe organ simulation, and which imply
that this sort of extra complication is really necessary. Of course, there
will always be some organists who really do want those extra complications,
and I say - if they are happy to go those lengths - by all means pursue
them.

John Reimer




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Colin Pykett
2017-06-14 14:11:33 UTC
Permalink
I'm replying to this thread because it kindly discusses Trendline Synthesis
in a constructive fashion. However I should point out that I'm really an
impostor here, because I don't actually use jOrgan. I did fire it up in the
early days and was impressed, but as I had by then developed my own VPO
system (Prog Organ) I was hooked into that and have been ever since. The
two are functionally quite similar though, both being 'MIDI relays' which
map console commands to a range of independent synthesiser options.
Therefore discussions on how to generate the constituent wave files for
sample sets are valid here I would suggest.

Aaron Laws remarked "it would be fun to create a GUI for modeling
synthesized samples, and be able to change them on the fly". It would
certainly be fun to have one, but less so when you have to do the
programming (!), although I've done that. Unfortunately developing an
all-singing, all-dancing Windows program is extremely time consuming and it
can easily become specific to the machine you are doing the programming on
if you aren't very careful! Mine runs on XP ("what's that?" I hear you cry)
and without a lot more testing I'm therefore not in a position to release it
yet.

I agree with much of what John Reimer has said. I hope he won't mind me
saying that we are friends without ever having met (I have a number of good
buddies in the Antipodes thanks to the internet, but have only met one of
them in person so far - my loss). We both seem to have a common approach to
electronic organs, both technically and musically, going back to the
analogue days and continuing today. He is quite right to say that it's
horses for courses (not that he actually used those words).

But thank you for your interest in Trendline Synthesis and writing about it.

Best wishes

Colin Pykett




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Thomas Beck
2017-06-14 15:17:20 UTC
Permalink
Colin,

FYI, your trendline synthesis application does run under Linux using wine.

Tom
Post by Colin Pykett
I'm replying to this thread because it kindly discusses Trendline Synthesis
in a constructive fashion. However I should point out that I'm really an
impostor here, because I don't actually use jOrgan. I did fire it up in the
early days and was impressed, but as I had by then developed my own VPO
system (Prog Organ) I was hooked into that and have been ever since. The
two are functionally quite similar though, both being 'MIDI relays' which
map console commands to a range of independent synthesiser options.
Therefore discussions on how to generate the constituent wave files for
sample sets are valid here I would suggest.
Aaron Laws remarked "it would be fun to create a GUI for modeling
synthesized samples, and be able to change them on the fly". It would
certainly be fun to have one, but less so when you have to do the
programming (!), although I've done that. Unfortunately developing an
all-singing, all-dancing Windows program is extremely time consuming and it
can easily become specific to the machine you are doing the programming on
if you aren't very careful! Mine runs on XP ("what's that?" I hear you cry)
and without a lot more testing I'm therefore not in a position to release it
yet.
I agree with much of what John Reimer has said. I hope he won't mind me
saying that we are friends without ever having met (I have a number of good
buddies in the Antipodes thanks to the internet, but have only met one of
them in person so far - my loss). We both seem to have a common approach to
electronic organs, both technically and musically, going back to the
analogue days and continuing today. He is quite right to say that it's
horses for courses (not that he actually used those words).
But thank you for your interest in Trendline Synthesis and writing about it.
Best wishes
Colin Pykett
--
View this message in context: http://jorgan.999862.n4.
nabble.com/Trendline-Synthesis-tp4665134p4665142.html
Sent from the jOrgan - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Colin Pykett
2017-06-14 15:28:11 UTC
Permalink
Colin,

FYI, your trendline synthesis application does run under Linux using wine.

Tom

That's very useful to know Tom. Thank you. Although I use Linux/Ubuntu I
had not got round to 'wining' this particular app.

Going off at a tangent, a few more words about developing synthetic samples
might be relevant. Often they are generated using additive synthesis, with
the harmonic recipe having first been derived by a variety of methods - e.g.
Klangsynth (for many years now not available but I've long wished I could
contact its originator to thank him for it), AdSynDX, etc. Trendline
synthesis is a more recent method which requires far fewer parameters to
specify the spectrum/harmonic recipe. These techniques are more or less
similar to the obsolete Bradford and Musicom real time synthesis organs,
with the practical difference that the latter do the synthesis in real time
as the instrument is being played, rather than offline beforehand.

Therefore one can expect that the aural results ought to be similar in both
cases. Therefore, if you were/are reasonably satisfied with the sorts of
sound from commercial real time synthesis organs, then you could get the
same level of satisfaction in principle using offline synthesis. Obviously
this is rather a generalisation, but the former firm of Copeman Hart in
England produced some pretty good instruments using the Musicom system
before they were acquired by Church Organ World or whatever they call
themselves now. So this is perhaps a benchmark to bear in mind if you are
interested in using synthetic samples.

Personally I use both - real and synthetic. I don't have any vested
interest as they both have their strengths and weaknesses. Real samples can
accurately simulate specific pipes but do not offer much voicing freedom.
Synthetic samples are more generic but the voicing options are more
flexible. Trendline synthesis makes voicing even easier because it depends
on only 4 parameters to specify an entire spectrum/harmonic recipe which
might consist of 50 harmonics or more.

But I don't want to be seen as pushing it too much. I'm just interested as
to how other view it.

Colin Pykett



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Erik De Schrijver
2017-06-14 20:13:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Beck
Colin,
FYI, your trendline synthesis application does run under Linux using wine.
Tom,

How did you do that?

I have the subdirectory Trendline-Software-Distro1 installed in wine
under C:/Program Files (x86).
The program TrendlinePlot2.exe runs up to the point when the graphic
screen shows up.
Hitting any key is closes and the (main) program shows:

Write harmonics to SYN file (Y or N)?

There is freezes; it does not recognize input from the keyboard.

Any hint would be welcome.

Thanks in advance.

Erik.
Thomas Beck
2017-06-15 13:35:44 UTC
Permalink
Oops. Sorry Erik. I got to that screen too and then stopped. I didn't test
it the rest of the way.

My apologies for not being thorough.

Tom
Post by Erik De Schrijver
Post by Thomas Beck
Colin,
FYI, your trendline synthesis application does run under Linux using wine.
Tom,
How did you do that?
I have the subdirectory Trendline-Software-Distro1 installed in wine under
C:/Program Files (x86).
The program TrendlinePlot2.exe runs up to the point when the graphic
screen shows up.
Write harmonics to SYN file (Y or N)?
There is freezes; it does not recognize input from the keyboard.
Any hint would be welcome.
Thanks in advance.
Erik.
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Erik De Schrijver
2017-06-15 19:57:51 UTC
Permalink
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Thomas Beck
2017-06-15 20:23:41 UTC
Permalink
Thanks, Erik. I'll try it out.

Tom
I have all the Trendline files saved in a directory Trendline-Software
which is placed at .wine/drive_c/Program Files (x86)/Trendline-Software.
In a terminal i navigate to this subdirectory.
wine TrendlinePlot2.exe
Then i can run the program to the end, including saving a .syn file if
desired and generating a a .wav file.
All the best.
Erik.
------------------------------------------------------------
Oops. Sorry Erik. I got to that screen too and then stopped. I didn't test
it the rest of the way.
My apologies for not being thorough.
Tom
Post by Erik De Schrijver
Post by Thomas Beck
Colin,
FYI, your trendline synthesis application does run under Linux using wine.
Tom,
How did you do that?
I have the subdirectory Trendline-Software-Distro1 installed in wine
under C:/Program Files (x86).
The program TrendlinePlot2.exe runs up to the point when the graphic
screen shows up.
Write harmonics to SYN file (Y or N)?
There is freezes; it does not recognize input from the keyboard.
Any hint would be welcome.
Thanks in advance.
Erik.
------------------------------------------------------------
------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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_______________________________________________
------------------------------------------------------------
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John Beach
2017-06-14 08:52:44 UTC
Permalink
The concept of "physical modelling," the fact that the material structure of
the medium (pipe), producing a sound, determines its timber and its length
determines its pitch, or the frequency of that timber, is somewhat confused
by the factor of scaling. Seemingly, the "recipe" of harmonics and
amplitudes for any given timber applies to any frequency (note or Midi Key
number). That is,
an Oboe wave file, synthesized using harmonic amplitudes, produces an Oboe
timber at any frequency. If, for example, one synthesizes additively by
varying the amplitudes of component sine frequencies, beginning with 8'-C,
4'-C, 2-2/3'-G, 2'-C, 1-3/5'-E, 1-1'3'-G and 1'-C, the computer has the
ability to transpose the resulting timber for each of the frequencies of
pitches of the keyboard. The notion that the timber of 4'-C of a Principal
stop is physically-modelled using the recipe of harmonic amplitudes for D#,
it seems to me, is one of "same difference." The proposition becomes that,
"frequency varies timber." I think this is deceptive, since it is provable
that timber remains the same because of its constituent properties, just as
frequency is fixed.

Years ago, when I first analyzed some of the General Midi Soundfonts which
were professionally produced, I was struck by the fact that many of the wind
instruments used an Oboe for the upper registers, the highest treble notes
of the compass of the instrument. The distinction of timber was not
detected at those frequencies. One might as well say that "above 2048 Hz,
all timber in woodwinds is flute tone." This is disputable, of course. I
don't believe the same can be said of the factor of scaling with respect to
timber. While there may be truth to the fact that bass notes need more
harmonics to sound realistic, why would the recipe of those harmonics change
with frequency, if and since frequency (pitch) is, factually, determined by
the length of the material medium (pipe) and timber were (hypothetically)
determined by particular structure and scale?

Rameau's "Treatise on Harmony" deals with the specifics of frequency derived
from the length of a string. While there may be 4 or more different
qualities of materials used for strings, determining their timber, the
concept of "fretting" strings to shorten their length to produce a given
pitch or frequency does not change the material (constituent) structure of
the string. So I believe that the "recipe" of harmonic amplitudes for a
given instrument or organ stop is a valid concept. Transposition changes,
incrementally, the frequency of the ensemble of harmonic upper partials at
the specified amplitudes which determine timber. This is what must be
constant and consistent throughout the compass so that it is identifiable
(psycho-acoustically) as an Oboe, for example.
Perhaps, I don't yet understand the science that is presented with respect
to "scaling," as it relates to the maintenance of timber. It almost seems
to be a denial of the consistency of theory with respect to the recipe for
harmonic amplitudes which determine timber, based on the idea that
frequency, determined by length, somehow distorts timber. Is this a
correct perception?

John Beach



-----Original Message-----
From: John Reimer
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:14 PM
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Trendline Synthesis
Post by Thomas Beck
For those of you who are interested in synthesizing pipe sounds, here is a
link to an article by Colin Pykett about a new technique called trendline
synthesis.
Tom,

Thank you for drawing our attention to this very recent article of Colin
Pykett’s, which is a development of an earlier one (but also quite recent).
Colin’s website has long been a marvelous source of information and sanity
about all types of pipe organs and pipe organ substitutes. I was fascinated
to read the earlier one, as I realised that I had been using his trendlines
for many years (without using that term) in my attempts to classify organ
sounds, all based on harmonic analysis of actual recordings. It was second
nature to use logarithmic graph paper because of my engineering background.
I was plotting straight lines indeed!

What Colin is proposing in his latest article could be of great use to those
of us who want to explore the possibilities open to us in tonal synthesis.
When I first became involved in jOrgan some years ago, synthesis was the
only real course open to many of us, but now that developments in computer
resources has gone ahead in the way it has, I have no personal interest in
synthetic sounds any more, because of the musical satisfaction to be gained
(by me, at least) by using well-produced recorded samples. Having said that,
I was pleased to see the common sense being shown by Colin in the article,
in questioning what he obviously regards as undue complication in some
programs which offer high quality pipe organ simulation, and which imply
that this sort of extra complication is really necessary. Of course, there
will always be some organists who really do want those extra complications,
and I say - if they are happy to go those lengths - by all means pursue
them.

John Reimer




--
View this message in context:
http://jorgan.999862.n4.nabble.com/Trendline-Synthesis-tp4665134p4665138.html
Sent from the jOrgan - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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