[jOrgan-user] Release Sample

[Aaron Laws]

How do release samples work?

For instance, say I have a .5 second attack and a 3 second loop and .5
second release. If I play the note for four seconds, I will be .5 seconds
into the second iteration of the loop. When I release the key, does the
audio driver skip ahead to the release sound immediately? What kind of
effort is made to avoid the blip that might be caused by a mis-alignment of
phase?

I can think of two possible strategies off the top of my head:
1.) Quickly fade out the loop and fade in the release, and
2.) Wait until the loop signal becomes compatible with the beginning of the
release signal. For instance, if the release signal begins like a sine
wave: ascending from 0, the software would wait for the loop signal to
begin to cross 0 ascending.

I assume different software handles things differently, so I'm interested
in hearing how this is accomplished, and whether this is specified in SFZ,
or if that is up to the particular SFZ implementation.

In Christ,
Aaron Laws

[John Reimer]

Post by Aaron Laws
How do release samples work?

Aaron,

Your post identifies a real problem. In a 2014 blog on his website, Nick
Appleton gives his opinion that the way GO handles this problem is “not
particularly good”. I do not know if GO has improved matters since that was
written. Nick has said to me in a conversation that he has no idea how
Hauptwerk handles it (or indeed whether it does - my comment). Colin Pykett
also draws our attention to the problem in an article on his website.

I believe that the standard way to “join” the release to the looped sound is
to use a crossfade at the moment the note is released. But this does not
solve the phase problem, as you rightly observe.

It will indeed be interesting to learn how SFZ handles it.

(This situation is one of my reasons for preferring the sf2 method of
synthesizing the release, and allowing us to specify its duration in one of
the parameters. The problem then does not exist. But for some hearers, that
is not a satisfactory solution).

John Reimer




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[John Beach]

Aaron, I used to know how to configure release samples in the soundfont editor. There was a way of placing both the start wave file with attack and looped steady-state which played
until key release, at which time the release transient wave file would play, I think, triggered by the note-off, a kind of “inverse” setting. I would have to hear the difference between real
release samples and the “release maker” capability of Polyphone which, artificially, sets proper release times.

John B.

[Graham Goode]

Hi Aaron,

Post by Aaron Laws
How do release samples work?

I'm going to talk about real release wave files, not the ADSR releases
that most soundfonts use, those are merely fade outs of the sustain.

In regard to SF2, GIGA, GrandOrgue, and Hauptwerk, ALL rely on a fade
out of the sustain portion and a fade into the release portion. The
crossfade in GrandOrgue has been improved since Nick commented on it
three years ago. In GrandOrgue and Haupwerk the crossfade amount is
programmable per sample in the organ definition file. In Gigastudio it
is set in the release definition, and in Soundfonts the fade out is
programmed via ADSR values and the fade in is manually created in the
release wave file.

Keep in mind that creating a soundfont release sample requires the
creator to have a separate wave file for the release that has a
portion of looped silence before the release portion. The looped
silence plays during the sustain portion of the note, and then the
rest of the wave file plays once the note is released.

GrandOrgue and Hauptwerk use release markers, and so can have the
release portion as part of the same wave file as the attack and
sustain, or have it as a separate file. Giga has the release portion
as a separate file that plays on Note Off.

GG

[Graham Wykes]

Can I just add here that SFZ puts the release sample in a layer with a
directive to not begin playing until the note release is detected.

Cheers
Graham W

Post by Graham Goode
Hi Aaron,

Post by Aaron Laws
How do release samples work?

I'm going to talk about real release wave files, not the ADSR releases
that most soundfonts use, those are merely fade outs of the sustain.
In regard to SF2, GIGA, GrandOrgue, and Hauptwerk, ALL rely on a fade
out of the sustain portion and a fade into the release portion. The
crossfade in GrandOrgue has been improved since Nick commented on it
three years ago. In GrandOrgue and Haupwerk the crossfade amount is
programmable per sample in the organ definition file. In Gigastudio it
is set in the release definition, and in Soundfonts the fade out is
programmed via ADSR values and the fade in is manually created in the
release wave file.
Keep in mind that creating a soundfont release sample requires the
creator to have a separate wave file for the release that has a
portion of looped silence before the release portion. The looped
silence plays during the sustain portion of the note, and then the
rest of the wave file plays once the note is released.
GrandOrgue and Hauptwerk use release markers, and so can have the
release portion as part of the same wave file as the attack and
sustain, or have it as a separate file. Giga has the release portion
as a separate file that plays on Note Off.
GG
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[John Reimer]

Post by Graham Goode
In regard to SF2, GIGA, GrandOrgue, and Hauptwerk, ALL rely on a fade
out of the sustain portion and a fade into the release portion. The
crossfade in GrandOrgue has been improved since Nick commented on it
three years ago.

GrahamG,

I am pleased to hear that GO has improved the matter since Nick Appleton
commented on it. But in what respect has it improved it? Does it solve the
phase difference problem? Does Hauptwerk solve it, and if so how? I don’t
see how the rest of what you say in your post, and what Graham Wykes says in
his post re SFZ, actually address the phase problem.

John Reimer




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[Graham Goode]

Hi JohnR,

Crossfades minimise the phase problem, they don't get rid of it 100%.

The longer the crossfade, the lower the amount of phasing, but that
has to be balanced against the sound of the release. Typically a
crossfade of 20ms is applied. GO improved crossfade by tightening up
the type of fade in and out, and allowing the organ definition file to
set a longer or shorter length when needed.

So, as the sustain portion is fading out, the release portion is
fading in. At 50% into the fades the amplitude of both are equal, and
at that point some phase issues can occur, but they fade out very
quickly thereafter.

GrahamG

[John Reimer]

Post by Graham Goode
Crossfades minimise the phase problem, they don't get rid of it 100%.
The longer the crossfade, the lower the amount of phasing, but that has to
be balanced against the sound of the release. Typically a crossfade of
20ms is applied.

Graham,

Thank you. 20ms is very short. It strikes me that this is getting down to
what the human hearing can process. So that seems a reasonable solution.

John Reimer




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[Aaron Laws]

Post by Graham Goode
Hi Aaron,

Post by Aaron Laws
How do release samples work?

I'm going to talk about real release wave files, not the ADSR releases
that most soundfonts use, those are merely fade outs of the sustain.
In regard to SF2, GIGA, GrandOrgue, and Hauptwerk, ALL rely on a fade
out of the sustain portion and a fade into the release portion. The
crossfade in GrandOrgue has been improved since Nick commented on it
three years ago. In GrandOrgue and Haupwerk the crossfade amount is
programmable per sample in the organ definition file. In Gigastudio it
is set in the release definition, and in Soundfonts the fade out is
programmed via ADSR values and the fade in is manually created in the
release wave file.
Keep in mind that creating a soundfont release sample requires the
creator to have a separate wave file for the release that has a
portion of looped silence before the release portion. The looped
silence plays during the sustain portion of the note, and then the
rest of the wave file plays once the note is released.
GrandOrgue and Hauptwerk use release markers, and so can have the
release portion as part of the same wave file as the attack and
sustain, or have it as a separate file. Giga has the release portion
as a separate file that plays on Note Off.
GG

Thank you for the detail here; that's very helpful.

In Christ,
Aaron Laws

[William Blalock]

Hello to all

Hope someone can help me with jorgan audio questions. I have an 8 channel
audio system I am using with hauptwerk basic at this time but it only has 2
channel audio in the basic edition so I am not getting the full advantage
of my system. I used jorgan a few years ago but had a much smaller system
at the time. I don't want to spend money to get the advanced addition of
HW in that I think I like jorgan and grandorgue better and no cost. I do
however want to enjoy the advantage of my audio. My question is does jorgan
have multi channel? My 3 manual digital organ has full midi from the
factory but is a model from early 90's and sound as good as todays
sampling. I am trying to gather information and advice from someone with
experience. Everything, pistons draw knobs, couplers expression is midi. I
would not need touch screens. I have considered Artisan sound engine but
very expensive. I have a i5 dell fast processor with 1 tarabite and 16gigs
ram. If jorgan has multi channel with a little help configuring I have all
I need to have a great sounding organ without spending more. Any with
experience that can give some advice and a little help setting it up would
be most appreciated. Best regards William

Post by Aaron Laws

Post by Graham Goode
Hi Aaron,

Post by Aaron Laws
How do release samples work?

I'm going to talk about real release wave files, not the ADSR releases
that most soundfonts use, those are merely fade outs of the sustain.
In regard to SF2, GIGA, GrandOrgue, and Hauptwerk, ALL rely on a fade
out of the sustain portion and a fade into the release portion. The
crossfade in GrandOrgue has been improved since Nick commented on it
three years ago. In GrandOrgue and Haupwerk the crossfade amount is
programmable per sample in the organ definition file. In Gigastudio it
is set in the release definition, and in Soundfonts the fade out is
programmed via ADSR values and the fade in is manually created in the
release wave file.
Keep in mind that creating a soundfont release sample requires the
creator to have a separate wave file for the release that has a
portion of looped silence before the release portion. The looped
silence plays during the sustain portion of the note, and then the
rest of the wave file plays once the note is released.
GrandOrgue and Hauptwerk use release markers, and so can have the
release portion as part of the same wave file as the attack and
sustain, or have it as a separate file. Giga has the release portion
as a separate file that plays on Note Off.
GG

Thank you for the detail here; that's very helpful.
In Christ,
Aaron Laws
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[g***@gmail.com]

Hello William

What jOrgan dispositions are you currently using, or interested in using?

Adapting jOrgan to use your multi-channel system will mean adapting each
organ disposition individually to use multiple channels. It will require
you learning how jOrgan makes these links and making the changes in
construct mode. If you were to download an updated version of even the same
jOrgan disposition, you would need to make all the channel adaptations
again.
Multi-channel use is not simply a one-off group of settings that will
automatically be applied to all dispositions in jOrgan.

I don't know much about Hauptwerk, but I do understand that the
multi-channel function can be more than just allocating ranks to specific
channels. It can also be to split ranks through two or more channels to
avoid 3rds and 5ths of the same rank playing through the same channel. This
level of splitting is not feasible in jOrgan.

Are you still keen to pursue this path?

Regards
Rick

Post by William Blalock
Hello to all
Hope someone can help me with jorgan audio questions. I have an 8 channel
audio system I am using with hauptwerk basic at this time but it only has 2
channel audio in the basic edition so I am not getting the full advantage
of my system. I used jorgan a few years ago but had a much smaller system
at the time. I don't want to spend money to get the advanced addition of
HW in that I think I like jorgan and grandorgue better and no cost. I do
however want to enjoy the advantage of my audio. My question is does jorgan
have multi channel? My 3 manual digital organ has full midi from the
factory but is a model from early 90's and sound as good as todays
sampling. I am trying to gather information and advice from someone with
experience. Everything, pistons draw knobs, couplers expression is midi. I
would not need touch screens. I have considered Artisan sound engine but
very expensive. I have a i5 dell fast processor with 1 tarabite and 16gigs
ram. If jorgan has multi channel with a little help configuring I have all
I need to have a great sounding organ without spending more. Any with
experience that can give some advice and a little help setting it up would
be most appreciated. Best regards William

Post by Aaron Laws

Post by Graham Goode
Hi Aaron,

Post by Aaron Laws
How do release samples work?

I'm going to talk about real release wave files, not the ADSR releases
that most soundfonts use, those are merely fade outs of the sustain.
In regard to SF2, GIGA, GrandOrgue, and Hauptwerk, ALL rely on a fade
out of the sustain portion and a fade into the release portion. The
crossfade in GrandOrgue has been improved since Nick commented on it
three years ago. In GrandOrgue and Haupwerk the crossfade amount is
programmable per sample in the organ definition file. In Gigastudio it
is set in the release definition, and in Soundfonts the fade out is
programmed via ADSR values and the fade in is manually created in the
release wave file.
Keep in mind that creating a soundfont release sample requires the
creator to have a separate wave file for the release that has a
portion of looped silence before the release portion. The looped
silence plays during the sustain portion of the note, and then the
rest of the wave file plays once the note is released.
GrandOrgue and Hauptwerk use release markers, and so can have the
release portion as part of the same wave file as the attack and
sustain, or have it as a separate file. Giga has the release portion
as a separate file that plays on Note Off.
GG

Thank you for the detail here; that's very helpful.
In Christ,
Aaron Laws
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