[jOrgan-user] jOrgan Recorder Disposition-Proprietary Data channel?

Discussion:

John Beach

2017-05-30 23:53:32 UTC

Does anyone know what MIDI channel, (or if it is fixed or floating), jOrgan Recorder uses to record and playback the disposition-proprietary, Console element changes which are made during a performance.
We can assign, using Customizer, the channels of each division, but I am concerned, specifically, with the proprietary data channel.
Would it be possible, using an MPL Message, to intercept the recorded Console element changes from MIDI files which were not produced by a jOrgan disposition, if a disposition of the real organ on which
the files were made were created with a soundfont using the stop numbering system of that organ? Some of you may be familiar with Classical Midi Organ Stop (www.graeber.com) which is one of the
oldest organ websites dedicated to midi files. There are pipe organ midi files which were produced on a Reuters organ and the stop list and its midi numbering system (program change numbers in a bank)
are given. In old versions of Cakewalk it was possible to get an exact breakout of the stops used in each file. I have created a jOrgan disposition of the organ with a soundfont using the stop/preset/program change numbering system given in the stop list. Volume and expression changes are standard MIDI. So, I am thinking that they should be readable by jOrgan (by inputting from a MIDI
sequencer program using a virtual MIDI cable), if the proper âinterceptâ messages are present in jOrgan while using the jOrgan disposition to play the .mid file. The Reutersâ proprietary data channel is
channel 5. But this channel number could be changed to the number of the jOrgan Recorder proprietary data channel, if it is known, since the data is MIDI data and, therefore, compatible. I think the theory is correct. I just need to put it into practice......

Thanks in advance.

John Beach

g***@gmail.com

2017-05-31 00:54:12 UTC

Permalink

Hi John

To play a MIDI file produced by another instrument I wouldn't suggest you
try to use the inbuilt jOrgam MIDI player.
I have successfully setup MIDI files recorded on the real Pipe Christie to
play on jOrgan. I am not using the jOrgan MIDI player. I am using MIDIBar
(a MIDI file player that comes with MidiOx). I send the data from MIDIBar
to jOrgan using LoopBe (a virtual MIDI cable). I set the MIDI input
settings using the Customizer in jOrgan. I have a Connector Element to make
the connection for Console messages.

The jOrgan Christie disposition is of course the exact replication of the
real Christie console. I have created MIDI Activate and Deactivate Messages
on each stop having assessed the MIDI data from the organ recorder.

I used Anvil Studio and MIDIOx to assess the MIDI data.

You can see the jOrgan stops messages using Anvil Studio using "Event
List". They are on the "Console" "Track" of a jOrgan MIDI file. But this is
of no use to you in trying to replay a MIDI file recorded on a different
instrument.

Regards
Rick

Post by John Beach
Does anyone know what MIDI channel, (or if it is fixed or floating),
jOrgan Recorder uses to record and playback the disposition-proprietary,
Console element changes which are made during a performance.
We can assign, using Customizer, the channels of each division, but I am
concerned, specifically, with the proprietary data channel.
Would it be possible, using an MPL Message, to intercept the recorded
Console element changes from MIDI files which were not produced by a jOrgan
disposition, if a disposition of the real organ on which
the files were made were created with a soundfont using the stop numbering
system of that organ? Some of you may be familiar with Classical Midi
Organ Stop (www.graeber.com) which is one of the
oldest organ websites dedicated to midi files. There are pipe organ midi
files which were produced on a Reuters organ and the stop list and its midi
numbering system (program change numbers in a bank)
are given. In old versions of Cakewalk it was possible to get an exact
breakout of the stops used in each file. I have created a jOrgan
disposition of the organ with a soundfont using the stop/preset/program
change numbering system given in the stop list. Volume and expression
changes are standard MIDI. So, I am thinking that they should be readable
by jOrgan (by inputting from a MIDI
sequencer program using a virtual MIDI cable), if the proper âinterceptâ
messages are present in jOrgan while using the jOrgan disposition to play
the .mid file. The Reutersâ proprietary data channel is
channel 5. But this channel number could be changed to the number of the
jOrgan Recorder proprietary data channel, if it is known, since the data is
MIDI data and, therefore, compatible. I think the theory is correct. I
just need to put it into practice......
Thanks in advance.
John Beach
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John Reimer

2017-06-14 05:34:13 UTC

Permalink

Post by g***@gmail.com
To play a MIDI file produced by another instrument I wouldn't suggest you
try to use the inbuilt jOrgan MIDI player.

The last few days I have spent a lot of time exploring this matter of
editing jOrgan MIDI files, and have had only partial success, as we should
have expected from Rick's words. The problem is that recordings made by the
jOrgan recorder seem to send the information out in only two channels, one
recording the key events (notes-on and notes-off), and the other recording
the stop changes and presumably any volume control changes effected by the
swell pedal. The various MIDI editors mentioned in this thread and its many
derivative posts deal with such recordings in a very inconsistent way, which
seems to vary from disposition to disposition. So no basis there for any
confidence.

I have certainly managed to find a solution for my particular need, which is
to edit my recordings of hymns for jOrgan use in church services where no
organist is available to play. I simply set a hymn file playing in the
jOrgan recorder and make a recording of that using a suitable MIDI recorder
(such as found in Cantabile or in MIDI Editor). All the notes being played
(regardless of whether they are being played on the Great, Swell or Pedals)
turn up in one Track. As such, they can be edited in MIDI Editor or in Anvil
Studio, if the latter is preferred for some reason. The resulting file will
be simply in four parts (if that is what you have been playing) and can be
saved and played into jOrgan and re-recorded by the jOrgan recorder. You
have to add appropriate stop changes while it is being recorded, and any
swell pedal changes. You also need to set the MIDI channels for the Swell
and Pedals to something other than "1". Note that there is no question of
being able to reproduce the melody on a different department to that playing
the rest. However, if one develops the skill and if the recorded notes are
suitable, it is certainly possible while doing this recording to make the
Pedal to Manual coupler active as needed, if you have added such a feature
to your disposition, and similarly to do things with the Melody coupler, if
you have added one.

If you have a jOrgan MIDI file which does depend on playing different notes
on various departments at the same time, and you want to edit it, there is a
solution which I have devised, but it is not for the faint-hearted, for it
involves a lot of work. This solution applies also to the situation where
you are planning to play the piece yourself without using an existing MIDI
file. Here are the steps:

1. Record the piece from jOrgan as it is played, using the MIDI Editor
program. It may be advisable if doing it from an existing jOrgan MIDI file,
to change the file Console entry to "none", but I don't remember just why I
am suggesting this. Perhaps it doesn't matter. The resulting program will
contain all notes played, in the one track, and all in Channel 1 (MIDI
Channel "0").
2. Open that recorded file in Anvil Studio and create two extra channels
(which Anvil Studio does allow you to do). I am assuming a 2-manuals and
pedals organ.
3. Do a Select All on Channel 1 and use Patch Mix to place all the notes on
the other two tracks.
4. Decide which track you wish to assign to the various organ departments
and laboriously delete the notes you do not wish to sound on each
department, as appropriate.
5. Track 1 will already have the notes as channel 1. Assign say channel 2 to
the next track and channel 3 to the third.
6. Save this file, which can then be played back to jOrgan, using the jOrgan
Recorder to make a recording. You will have to manipulate the stops and
swell pedal as you do this. (The different notes played on the various
departments will have been preserved.)
There is so much work involved in Step 4 above, that I suspect you will not
want to do it. You would have to be desperate.

I had no success trying somehow to produce a MIDI recording of 3 tracks when
using jOrgan, either playing jOrgan directly or using an existing jOrgan
MIDI file. This even involved creating a special jOrgan disposition whereby
each department (Gt, Sw, Pd) outputted to a separate MIDI Yoke "cable". I
was able to make a MIDI recording of this using Cantabile (some MIDI editors
I tried allowed one to set only one MIDI Yoke input, but Cantabile did not
have that restriction). However, the resulting MIDI recording still showed
only one track, all keying events being in Channel 1 (MIDI Channel "0").

I did manage to use Cantabile to make a MIDI recording of notes I played on
my CASIO keyboard, with notes being played firstly in Channel 1, then
Channel 2, and then Channel 3. The resulting MIDI recording WAS of 3 tracks,
meaning that it would be easily editable, with the three organ departments
remaining separate. I suspect the MIDI Editor also could be used to make
such a recording.

CONCLUSION: If you want to make a MIDI recording of a piece which requires
the playing of different notes on the departments, and which you can later
edit, find an organ with MIDI Output and play it into a MIDI recorder. After
editing you can play it into a jOrgan disposition by means of a sequencer
(or MIDI Editor), and record it using the jOrgan recorder.

John Reimer (with apologies for the length of this post)

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John Reimer

2017-06-14 05:43:56 UTC

Permalink

Post by John Reimer
6. Save this file, which can then be played back to jOrgan, using the
jOrgan Recorder to make a recording.

Sorry, I failed to mention one detail here. In this step, the appropriate
MIDI channel assigments using the Customizer have to be made before
recording it in jOrgan.

John Reimer

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John Beach

2017-05-31 02:26:25 UTC

Permalink

Rick, thanks for the information. The problem I have is that the NOTE-ON of a MIDI Note Number equates to a specific stop on the dedicated channel for the proprietary data, stops and swell shades, for the Reuters organ. This would require some kind of translation of MIDI MPL reading the NOTE-ON from the proprietary data channel to activate the corresponding stop in the disposition. I equated the
soundfont preset number for each stop in the soundfont bank to a stop, the activation of which is the NOTE-ON of that MIDI note number on the proprietary-data channel (like a Sysex message). In the
Stops and Swell Shades channel 5, the midi note-on remains ON for the entire time that stop is in use, or until stop changes are made. So, this equation or correlation would have to be programmable
in jOrgan in order to get the disposition to play the original midi files which were produced by the Reuters organ. Not sure I can do that exactly.

John

From: ***@gmail.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2017 8:54 PM
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] jOrgan Recorder Disposition-Proprietary Data channel?

Hi John

To play a MIDI file produced by another instrument I wouldn't suggest you try to use the inbuilt jOrgam MIDI player.
I have successfully setup MIDI files recorded on the real Pipe Christie to play on jOrgan. I am not using the jOrgan MIDI player. I am using MIDIBar (a MIDI file player that comes with MidiOx). I send the data from MIDIBar to jOrgan using LoopBe (a virtual MIDI cable). I set the MIDI input settings using the Customizer in jOrgan. I have a Connector Element to make the connection for Console messages.

The jOrgan Christie disposition is of course the exact replication of the real Christie console. I have created MIDI Activate and Deactivate Messages on each stop having assessed the MIDI data from the organ recorder.

I used Anvil Studio and MIDIOx to assess the MIDI data.

You can see the jOrgan stops messages using Anvil Studio using "Event List". They are on the "Console" "Track" of a jOrgan MIDI file. But this is of no use to you in trying to replay a MIDI file recorded on a different instrument.

Regards
Rick

On Wed, 31 May 2017 at 09:54 John Beach <***@fairpoint.net> wrote:

Does anyone know what MIDI channel, (or if it is fixed or floating), jOrgan Recorder uses to record and playback the disposition-proprietary, Console element changes which are made during a performance.
We can assign, using Customizer, the channels of each division, but I am concerned, specifically, with the proprietary data channel.
Would it be possible, using an MPL Message, to intercept the recorded Console element changes from MIDI files which were not produced by a jOrgan disposition, if a disposition of the real organ on which
the files were made were created with a soundfont using the stop numbering system of that organ? Some of you may be familiar with Classical Midi Organ Stop (www.graeber.com) which is one of the
oldest organ websites dedicated to midi files. There are pipe organ midi files which were produced on a Reuters organ and the stop list and its midi numbering system (program change numbers in a bank)
are given. In old versions of Cakewalk it was possible to get an exact breakout of the stops used in each file. I have created a jOrgan disposition of the organ with a soundfont using the stop/preset/program change numbering system given in the stop list. Volume and expression changes are standard MIDI. So, I am thinking that they should be readable by jOrgan (by inputting from a MIDI
sequencer program using a virtual MIDI cable), if the proper âinterceptâ messages are present in jOrgan while using the jOrgan disposition to play the .mid file. The Reutersâ proprietary data channel is
channel 5. But this channel number could be changed to the number of the jOrgan Recorder proprietary data channel, if it is known, since the data is MIDI data and, therefore, compatible. I think the theory is correct. I just need to put it into practice......

Thanks in advance.

John Beach
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

g***@gmail.com

2017-05-31 03:10:08 UTC

Permalink

Hi John

Each stop on your jOrgan console can have "Activate" and "Deactivate"
"Messages" assigned to them. You will need to open the View - Messages
section in Construct Mode to see this. You then enter an MPL message for
each (which is really just the MIDI code). For example my Activate message
is "equal 186, equal 81, equal 19" This means Control Change, Channel
10, Controller 81, Value 19.

Post by John Beach
Rick, thanks for the information. The problem I have is that the NOTE-ON
of a MIDI Note Number equates to a specific stop on the dedicated channel
for the proprietary data, stops and swell shades, for the Reuters organ.
This would require some kind of translation of MIDI MPL reading the NOTE-ON
from the proprietary data channel to activate the corresponding stop in the
disposition. I equated the
soundfont preset number for each stop in the soundfont bank to a stop, the
activation of which is the NOTE-ON of that MIDI note number on the
proprietary-data channel (like a Sysex message). In the
Stops and Swell Shades channel 5, the midi note-on remains ON for the
entire time that stop is in use, or until stop changes are made. So, this
equation or correlation would have to be programmable
in jOrgan in order to get the disposition to play the original midi files
which were produced by the Reuters organ. Not sure I can do that exactly.
John
*Sent:* Tuesday, May 30, 2017 8:54 PM
*Subject:* Re: [jOrgan-user] jOrgan Recorder Disposition-Proprietary Data
channel?
Hi John
To play a MIDI file produced by another instrument I wouldn't suggest you
try to use the inbuilt jOrgam MIDI player.
I have successfully setup MIDI files recorded on the real Pipe Christie to
play on jOrgan. I am not using the jOrgan MIDI player. I am using MIDIBar
(a MIDI file player that comes with MidiOx). I send the data from MIDIBar
to jOrgan using LoopBe (a virtual MIDI cable). I set the MIDI input
settings using the Customizer in jOrgan. I have a Connector Element to make
the connection for Console messages.
The jOrgan Christie disposition is of course the exact replication of the
real Christie console. I have created MIDI Activate and Deactivate Messages
on each stop having assessed the MIDI data from the organ recorder.
I used Anvil Studio and MIDIOx to assess the MIDI data.
You can see the jOrgan stops messages using Anvil Studio using "Event
List". They are on the "Console" "Track" of a jOrgan MIDI file. But this is
of no use to you in trying to replay a MIDI file recorded on a different
instrument.
Regards
Rick

Post by John Beach
Does anyone know what MIDI channel, (or if it is fixed or floating),
jOrgan Recorder uses to record and playback the disposition-proprietary,
Console element changes which are made during a performance.
We can assign, using Customizer, the channels of each division, but I am
concerned, specifically, with the proprietary data channel.
Would it be possible, using an MPL Message, to intercept the recorded
Console element changes from MIDI files which were not produced by a jOrgan
disposition, if a disposition of the real organ on which
the files were made were created with a soundfont using the stop
numbering system of that organ? Some of you may be familiar with
Classical Midi Organ Stop (www.graeber.com) which is one of the
oldest organ websites dedicated to midi files. There are pipe organ midi
files which were produced on a Reuters organ and the stop list and its midi
numbering system (program change numbers in a bank)
are given. In old versions of Cakewalk it was possible to get an exact
breakout of the stops used in each file. I have created a jOrgan
disposition of the organ with a soundfont using the stop/preset/program
change numbering system given in the stop list. Volume and expression
changes are standard MIDI. So, I am thinking that they should be readable
by jOrgan (by inputting from a MIDI
sequencer program using a virtual MIDI cable), if the proper âinterceptâ
messages are present in jOrgan while using the jOrgan disposition to play
the .mid file. The Reutersâ proprietary data channel is
channel 5. But this channel number could be changed to the number of the
jOrgan Recorder proprietary data channel, if it is known, since the data is
MIDI data and, therefore, compatible. I think the theory is correct. I
just need to put it into practice......
Thanks in advance.
John Beach
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John Beach

2017-05-31 07:56:40 UTC

Permalink

Rick, I have your Christie and have looked at the disposition messages and, while I see âActivate and Deactivateâ messages under the Messages Tab, âName,â there is no âequal 186, equal 81, equal 19â as you state, âfor example my Activate message is...â under the âMPL.â What is strange is that a Stop, presumably, is a kind of switch (Stop Element), which is either on or off, as the âPropertiesâ (Stop) âFrom 0, To 127â indicate, 0 being OFF and 127 being ON. So I was thinking that the MPL message would include either âsetâ or âequalâ and âInterceptâ since the message for activation of the stop is being sent to jOrgan from an external MIDI source rather than it being an internal (jOrgan-effectuated) source. (There is no âInterceptâ as with Volume and expression changes in external MIDI files played by external MIDI sequencer programs, input by Virtual Midi Cable to jOrgan, which are effectuated by Message Tab, Name âEngaging, Interceptâ and MPL=set and equal. Seemingly, the Intercept is a command to detect status of a Controller which is either constant, fixed or variable, and this status is what is asked for or specified by the Message. In the Event List of a Midi File, the program change number which is specified equates to the soundfont preset number, specified in jOrgan Messages as the Rank, set 192, set X, (X being the Preset Number of the Soundfont). If a Stop element is identified in jOrgan as a Switch for a Rank element, it seems logical that it would be identified with the same number as that of the Rank, except that its specific
properties, pitch (transpose) and velocity can be set different(ly) from the basic pitch or velocity of the Rank element. So, possibly and probably, Stop elements are identified, numerically, different from Rank elements in jOrgan. What the Stop number is, as differentiated from the Rank element to which it is referenced, is the important factor in the intercept of a Stop/Preset/Program Change number given in a MIDI file. In the soundfont, as we know, Instruments are not numbered, they are named. Whereas, Presets are numbered. So, there must be an MPL message which tells jOrgan to intercept
the status of a Stop (Switch-ON or OFF) referencing a Rank, which is the status of a Preset, numbered, of an Instrument, named. How is this indicated in jOrgan?

John

From: ***@gmail.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2017 11:10 PM
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Fw: jOrgan Recorder Disposition-Proprietary Data channel?

Hi John

Each stop on your jOrgan console can have "Activate" and "Deactivate" "Messages" assigned to them. You will need to open the View - Messages section in Construct Mode to see this. You then enter an MPL message for each (which is really just the MIDI code). For example my Activate message is "equal 186, equal 81, equal 19" This means Control Change, Channel 10, Controller 81, Value 19.

On Wed, 31 May 2017 at 12:27 John Beach <***@fairpoint.net> wrote:

Rick, thanks for the information. The problem I have is that the NOTE-ON of a MIDI Note Number equates to a specific stop on the dedicated channel for the proprietary data, stops and swell shades, for the Reuters organ. This would require some kind of translation of MIDI MPL reading the NOTE-ON from the proprietary data channel to activate the corresponding stop in the disposition. I equated the
soundfont preset number for each stop in the soundfont bank to a stop, the activation of which is the NOTE-ON of that MIDI note number on the proprietary-data channel (like a Sysex message). In the
Stops and Swell Shades channel 5, the midi note-on remains ON for the entire time that stop is in use, or until stop changes are made. So, this equation or correlation would have to be programmable
in jOrgan in order to get the disposition to play the original midi files which were produced by the Reuters organ. Not sure I can do that exactly.

John

From: ***@gmail.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2017 8:54 PM
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] jOrgan Recorder Disposition-Proprietary Data channel?

Hi John

To play a MIDI file produced by another instrument I wouldn't suggest you try to use the inbuilt jOrgam MIDI player.
I have successfully setup MIDI files recorded on the real Pipe Christie to play on jOrgan. I am not using the jOrgan MIDI player. I am using MIDIBar (a MIDI file player that comes with MidiOx). I send the data from MIDIBar to jOrgan using LoopBe (a virtual MIDI cable). I set the MIDI input settings using the Customizer in jOrgan. I have a Connector Element to make the connection for Console messages.

The jOrgan Christie disposition is of course the exact replication of the real Christie console. I have created MIDI Activate and Deactivate Messages on each stop having assessed the MIDI data from the organ recorder.

I used Anvil Studio and MIDIOx to assess the MIDI data.

You can see the jOrgan stops messages using Anvil Studio using "Event List". They are on the "Console" "Track" of a jOrgan MIDI file. But this is of no use to you in trying to replay a MIDI file recorded on a different instrument.

Regards
Rick

On Wed, 31 May 2017 at 09:54 John Beach <***@fairpoint.net> wrote:

Does anyone know what MIDI channel, (or if it is fixed or floating), jOrgan Recorder uses to record and playback the disposition-proprietary, Console element changes which are made during a performance.
We can assign, using Customizer, the channels of each division, but I am concerned, specifically, with the proprietary data channel.
Would it be possible, using an MPL Message, to intercept the recorded Console element changes from MIDI files which were not produced by a jOrgan disposition, if a disposition of the real organ on which
the files were made were created with a soundfont using the stop numbering system of that organ? Some of you may be familiar with Classical Midi Organ Stop (www.graeber.com) which is one of the
oldest organ websites dedicated to midi files. There are pipe organ midi files which were produced on a Reuters organ and the stop list and its midi numbering system (program change numbers in a bank)
are given. In old versions of Cakewalk it was possible to get an exact breakout of the stops used in each file. I have created a jOrgan disposition of the organ with a soundfont using the stop/preset/program change numbering system given in the stop list. Volume and expression changes are standard MIDI. So, I am thinking that they should be readable by jOrgan (by inputting from a MIDI
sequencer program using a virtual MIDI cable), if the proper âinterceptâ messages are present in jOrgan while using the jOrgan disposition to play the .mid file. The Reutersâ proprietary data channel is
channel 5. But this channel number could be changed to the number of the jOrgan Recorder proprietary data channel, if it is known, since the data is MIDI data and, therefore, compatible. I think the theory is correct. I just need to put it into practice......

Thanks in advance.

John Beach
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Graham Goode

2017-05-31 10:18:25 UTC

Permalink

Hi John,

g***@gmail.com

2017-05-31 10:54:26 UTC

Permalink

Hello John

The work I am talking about on the Christie disposition has taken place in
the last week. The version on the website only has a few activate
deactivate messages, and only one with MPL messages entered. It is the Vox
Humana 8' in the Solo division. (second row from the top) As I recall this
was an experiment to activate the stop from a keyboard note.

There is absolutely no relationship between messages to activate a stop and
anything to do with the soundfont. The stop is just a named switch which
happens in other areas to be linked to a rank in the soundfont.

Messages to activate a stop will simply need to be established from the
MIDI files intended to be used and possibly from the system manufacturer or
installer. There is not likely to be logic to it beyond the physical
sequence layout of the stops.

Regards
Rick

Post by Graham Goode
Hi John,

Post by John Beach
Does anyone know what MIDI channel, (or if it is fixed or floating),

jOrgan

Post by John Beach
Recorder uses to record and playback the disposition-proprietary, Console
element changes which are made during a performance.

My assumption is that that jOrgan uses Meta Data (non standard MIDI
additions) to store console changes (Stop, Swells, Pistons, etc.) in a
jOrgan recorded MIDI file. If this is the case then there won't be
anything that can be intercepted from an external MIDI file. There is
no MIDI channel or program change message or Note On or Off.
As you have surmised, you can configure your jOrgan organ to respond
the MIDI stop changing MIDI messages by matching the MPL messages of
each Stop on the console to a corresponding message that is stored in
an external MIDI file. And then playing the MIDI file in a sequencer
app and sending it into jOrgan via virtual MIDI cables. The Stop
change data would need to go to the Console Input.
The Stop Activate and Deactivate MPL messages would then need to match
the original scheme.
Kind regards,
GG
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John Beach

2017-05-31 18:47:33 UTC

Permalink

Graham and Rick, thanks to you both for your input on this. I have
inserted Activate and Deactivate messages for all the stops of the
disposition and created a test Midi file, using my external Midi Sequencer
Program, with a Note-On message and a Channel/Program Change Message in 3
divisions of the disposition. It worked properly, sounding the proper stops
in the three separate divisions, although there is no mechanical activation
of the physical stops on the jOrgan Console being on, lit, as contrasted
with being off, dark or not lit.

The problem, to be overcome, is the concept and use of a proprietary (Sysex)
MIDI channel, #5 in this case, (what jOrgan uses as a channel for Meta Data,
I don't know) used to send Stop (Activate/Deactivate) which are, in
essence, Program Change Messages, a MIDI note number being the equivalent of
a Program Change Number, that is, Midi Note Number 36 equals Program Change
#36 which is the Octave 8' in the Pedal division. Swell shade data is
listed as Contact Numbers which could be equated to one increment (green
light) of a Continuous Filter, slider element in jOrgan. However, the
correlation, as a degree of loudness or expression would require a series
of MPL messages, specifying incremental changes in expression relative to
the Swell Shade Contact Numbers which effectuate shade positions. This gets
complicated because Contacts The numbers 79-88 are Midi Note Numbers, sent
on MIDI Channel 5.

I put in a Google search concerning pipe organs with midi sysex and, by
coincidence, came up with this website,
http://www.tadstone.com/CMOS2SA.htm which deals with the exact problem I
have
described above, along with a conversion program. I am going to see if I
can make this work.

Thanks.
John

Swell Shades are Closed
79 Contact #1
81 Contact #2
83 Contact #3
82 Contact #4
80 Contact #5
76 Contact #6
77 Contact #7
78 Contact #8
Swell Shades are Open

Great Shades

Great Shades are Closed
87 Contact #1
86 Contact #2
85 Contact #3
84 Contact #4
91 Contact #5
90 Contact #6
89 Contact #7
88 Contact #8
Great Shades are Open

-----Original Message-----
From: Graham Goode
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2017 6:18 AM
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] jOrgan Recorder Disposition-Proprietary Data
channel?

Hi John,

My assumption is that that jOrgan uses Meta Data (non standard MIDI
additions) to store console changes (Stop, Swells, Pistons, etc.) in a
jOrgan recorded MIDI file. If this is the case then there won't be
anything that can be intercepted from an external MIDI file. There is
no MIDI channel or program change message or Note On or Off.

As you have surmised, you can configure your jOrgan organ to respond
the MIDI stop changing MIDI messages by matching the MPL messages of
each Stop on the console to a corresponding message that is stored in
an external MIDI file. And then playing the MIDI file in a sequencer
app and sending it into jOrgan via virtual MIDI cables. The Stop
change data would need to go to the Console Input.

The Stop Activate and Deactivate MPL messages would then need to match
the original scheme.

Kind regards,
GG

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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g***@gmail.com

2017-06-01 00:46:41 UTC

Permalink

Hi John

Glad to hear you are making progress.
Are you opening the MIDI file in the jOrgan player, or are you playing it
using an external sequencer (such as MIDIBar) and connecting it in using a
virtual MIDI cable (LoopBe or MIDIYoke)? (I suggest you shouldn't use the
inbuilt player)
If you use an external sequencer YOU have total control over what input
messages are looked at. You need to have a "Console" element in your
Disposition. In Customizer you will assign a MIDI device where it is
looking for messages. The MPL addressing will specify the MIDI Channel,
Event Type, and Number.
My stop tabs are moving when Activated triggered by external MIDI.

Here is a link what I have working

This MIDI file was recorded in concert on the real pipe organ. I have
adapted my jOrgan disposition to read the MIDI file as you can see.

I have not yet got swell working and will need some help.
The messages I get are as follows:

Main Swell Closed
Channel 9, CC80, 1
Channel 9, CC80, 2
Channel 9, CC80, 3
Channel 9, CC80, 4
Channel 9, CC80, 5
Channel 9, CC80, 6
Channel 9, CC80, 7
Channel 9, CC80, 8
Channel 9, CC80, 9
Channel 9, CC80, 10
Main Swell Fully Open
Channel 9, CC81, 10
Channel 9, CC81, 9
Channel 9, CC81, 8
Channel 9, CC81, 7
Channel 9, CC81, 6
Channel 9, CC81, 5
Channel 9, CC81, 4
Channel 9, CC81, 3
Channel 9, CC81, 2
Channel 9, CC81, 1
Main Swell Closed

Solo Swell is the same sequence just numbered 11-20.

Thanks
Regards
Rick

Post by John Beach
Graham and Rick, thanks to you both for your input on this. I have
inserted Activate and Deactivate messages for all the stops of the
disposition and created a test Midi file, using my external Midi Sequencer
Program, with a Note-On message and a Channel/Program Change Message in 3
divisions of the disposition. It worked properly, sounding the proper stops
in the three separate divisions, although there is no mechanical activation
of the physical stops on the jOrgan Console being on, lit, as contrasted
with being off, dark or not lit.
The problem, to be overcome, is the concept and use of a proprietary (Sysex)
MIDI channel, #5 in this case, (what jOrgan uses as a channel for Meta Data,
I don't know) used to send Stop (Activate/Deactivate) which are, in
essence, Program Change Messages, a MIDI note number being the equivalent of
a Program Change Number, that is, Midi Note Number 36 equals Program Change
#36 which is the Octave 8' in the Pedal division. Swell shade data is
listed as Contact Numbers which could be equated to one increment (green
light) of a Continuous Filter, slider element in jOrgan. However, the
correlation, as a degree of loudness or expression would require a series
of MPL messages, specifying incremental changes in expression relative to
the Swell Shade Contact Numbers which effectuate shade positions. This gets
complicated because Contacts The numbers 79-88 are Midi Note Numbers, sent
on MIDI Channel 5.
I put in a Google search concerning pipe organs with midi sysex and, by
coincidence, came up with this website,
http://www.tadstone.com/CMOS2SA.htm which deals with the exact problem I
have
described above, along with a conversion program. I am going to see if I
can make this work.
Thanks.
John
Swell Shades are Closed
79 Contact #1
81 Contact #2
83 Contact #3
82 Contact #4
80 Contact #5
76 Contact #6
77 Contact #7
78 Contact #8
Swell Shades are Open
Great Shades
Great Shades are Closed
87 Contact #1
86 Contact #2
85 Contact #3
84 Contact #4
91 Contact #5
90 Contact #6
89 Contact #7
88 Contact #8
Great Shades are Open
-----Original Message-----
From: Graham Goode
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2017 6:18 AM
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] jOrgan Recorder Disposition-Proprietary Data
channel?
Hi John,

My assumption is that that jOrgan uses Meta Data (non standard MIDI
additions) to store console changes (Stop, Swells, Pistons, etc.) in a
jOrgan recorded MIDI file. If this is the case then there won't be
anything that can be intercepted from an external MIDI file. There is
no MIDI channel or program change message or Note On or Off.
As you have surmised, you can configure your jOrgan organ to respond
the MIDI stop changing MIDI messages by matching the MPL messages of
each Stop on the console to a corresponding message that is stored in
an external MIDI file. And then playing the MIDI file in a sequencer
app and sending it into jOrgan via virtual MIDI cables. The Stop
change data would need to go to the Console Input.
The Stop Activate and Deactivate MPL messages would then need to match
the original scheme.
Kind regards,
GG
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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John Beach

2017-06-01 02:17:59 UTC

Permalink

Rick, watched your youtube videos of the jOrgan Christie and your Sound of Music (Edelweiss) on the real Christie. Very nice sound! I input to jOrgan from Record Producer Deluxe, a Midi Sequencer Program and make stop changes as desired. At least I now know what the actual stop complement of the organ is and can read which stops are being used in each midi file. On the tadstone.com website link I sent, the owner of the site makes some observations about other organ midi files, including Allen organ which also uses a proprietary channel (8) to send meta data. Apparently, this protects
the distinct individuality of whatever stop schemes organ manufacturers use. I could not tell from reading the event lists of the channels in the midi files from Allen organ what stops are being used to play them. I doubt such secrecy is something which actually increases sales. I may try to get the CMOS Reuters organ disposition as near to the description as I can. But I have other dispositions which
are larger and play more of the organ literature than that relatively small organ which seems to have a lot of unification-type redundancy in the stop complement.
Anyway, thanks for your help.

John

From: ***@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2017 8:46 PM
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Fw: jOrgan Recorder Disposition-Proprietary Data channel?

Hi John

Glad to hear you are making progress.
Are you opening the MIDI file in the jOrgan player, or are you playing it using an external sequencer (such as MIDIBar) and connecting it in using a virtual MIDI cable (LoopBe or MIDIYoke)? (I suggest you shouldn't use the inbuilt player)
If you use an external sequencer YOU have total control over what input messages are looked at. You need to have a "Console" element in your Disposition. In Customizer you will assign a MIDI device where it is looking for messages. The MPL addressing will specify the MIDI Channel, Event Type, and Number.
My stop tabs are moving when Activated triggered by external MIDI.

Here is a link what I have working http://youtu.be/oKXYWPJa8rM

This MIDI file was recorded in concert on the real pipe organ. I have adapted my jOrgan disposition to read the MIDI file as you can see.

I have not yet got swell working and will need some help.
The messages I get are as follows:

Main Swell Closed
Channel 9, CC80, 1
Channel 9, CC80, 2
Channel 9, CC80, 3
Channel 9, CC80, 4
Channel 9, CC80, 5
Channel 9, CC80, 6
Channel 9, CC80, 7
Channel 9, CC80, 8
Channel 9, CC80, 9
Channel 9, CC80, 10
Main Swell Fully Open
Channel 9, CC81, 10

Channel 9, CC81, 9
Channel 9, CC81, 8
Channel 9, CC81, 7
Channel 9, CC81, 6
Channel 9, CC81, 5
Channel 9, CC81, 4
Channel 9, CC81, 3
Channel 9, CC81, 2
Channel 9, CC81, 1
Main Swell Closed

Solo Swell is the same sequence just numbered 11-20.

Thanks
Regards
Rick

On Thu, 1 Jun 2017 at 04:48 John Beach <***@fairpoint.net> wrote:

Graham and Rick, thanks to you both for your input on this. I have
inserted Activate and Deactivate messages for all the stops of the
disposition and created a test Midi file, using my external Midi Sequencer
Program, with a Note-On message and a Channel/Program Change Message in 3
divisions of the disposition. It worked properly, sounding the proper stops
in the three separate divisions, although there is no mechanical activation
of the physical stops on the jOrgan Console being on, lit, as contrasted
with being off, dark or not lit.

The problem, to be overcome, is the concept and use of a proprietary (Sysex)
MIDI channel, #5 in this case, (what jOrgan uses as a channel for Meta Data,
I don't know) used to send Stop (Activate/Deactivate) which are, in
essence, Program Change Messages, a MIDI note number being the equivalent of
a Program Change Number, that is, Midi Note Number 36 equals Program Change
#36 which is the Octave 8' in the Pedal division. Swell shade data is
listed as Contact Numbers which could be equated to one increment (green
light) of a Continuous Filter, slider element in jOrgan. However, the
correlation, as a degree of loudness or expression would require a series
of MPL messages, specifying incremental changes in expression relative to
the Swell Shade Contact Numbers which effectuate shade positions. This gets
complicated because Contacts The numbers 79-88 are Midi Note Numbers, sent
on MIDI Channel 5.

I put in a Google search concerning pipe organs with midi sysex and, by
coincidence, came up with this website,
http://www.tadstone.com/CMOS2SA.htm which deals with the exact problem I
have
described above, along with a conversion program. I am going to see if I
can make this work.

Thanks.
John

Swell Shades are Closed
79 Contact #1
81 Contact #2
83 Contact #3
82 Contact #4
80 Contact #5
76 Contact #6
77 Contact #7
78 Contact #8
Swell Shades are Open

Great Shades

Great Shades are Closed
87 Contact #1
86 Contact #2
85 Contact #3
84 Contact #4
91 Contact #5
90 Contact #6
89 Contact #7
88 Contact #8
Great Shades are Open

-----Original Message-----
From: Graham Goode
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2017 6:18 AM
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] jOrgan Recorder Disposition-Proprietary Data
channel?

Hi John,

My assumption is that that jOrgan uses Meta Data (non standard MIDI
additions) to store console changes (Stop, Swells, Pistons, etc.) in a
jOrgan recorded MIDI file. If this is the case then there won't be
anything that can be intercepted from an external MIDI file. There is
no MIDI channel or program change message or Note On or Off.

As you have surmised, you can configure your jOrgan organ to respond
the MIDI stop changing MIDI messages by matching the MPL messages of
each Stop on the console to a corresponding message that is stored in
an external MIDI file. And then playing the MIDI file in a sequencer
app and sending it into jOrgan via virtual MIDI cables. The Stop
change data would need to go to the Console Input.

The Stop Activate and Deactivate MPL messages would then need to match
the original scheme.

Kind regards,
GG

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

John Beach

2017-06-01 02:50:44 UTC

Permalink

Lynn, thanks for your input. I knew most of what you stated below, but I
was not sure about the meta data channel since I have looked at jOrgan
Recorder-produced midi files in an external sequencer program and some have
no data at all except the keyboard names, Swell, Great, Pedal. They don't
even show note-on/note-off. Others do show note-on/note-off, but show no
metadata track.
Given the express purpose for MIDI, it is really rather pointless that
interfacing is stymied by a lack of standardization which defies the
concept.

John

-----Original Message-----
From: Lynn Walls
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2017 11:37 AM
To: John Beach
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] jOrgan Recorder Disposition-Proprietary Data
channel?

jOrgan Recorder does NOT record Console element changes as MIDI. Every
event (stop
change, coupler change, etc.) in the jOrgan Recorder MIDI file is encoded as
a Metadata
message (which is NOT MIDI!!!). Hence none of these control changes are
associated with
ANY MIDI channel whatsoever.

Only the actual Note-On/Note-Off messages corresponding to actual musical
notes being
played (not stop changes, expression or anything else) appear in the jOrgan
MIDI file as
actual MIDI messages...and even they are not organized by MIDI channel, but
rather by "Track".

And of course "Tracks" (like Metatdata) in a standard MIDI file are NOT even
MIDI. They
are only MIDI file organization and commentary concepts.

So far, the only renderer (player) that can read a jOrgan MIDI file and
interpret its
Metadata and Track structure properly is jOrgan itself!

CLW
-------------------------------------------------------------------

g***@gmail.com

2017-06-01 23:22:54 UTC

Permalink

Hi John

Thanks for your comments. I'm glad you enjoyed watching some of my clips. I
should really start thinking about some new stuff.

The MIDI sequencer you are using sounds interesting. Seems unfortunate they
haven't kept going with it.

I am finding Anvil Studio is able to show everything I need in a MIDI
file. The Event List function shows all the stop changes in a jOrgan
recording as comments. Each line can also be edited.

The Z-Tronics recorder/playback system we have installed on the real
Christie has Input cards monitoring the stops. Each card connects to up to
64 stops. (We have 171 stops so almost fill 3 cards). Each card connects to
a different MIDI channel.
So we get Channel 9, 10, 11. CC80 On, CC81 Off, Number 1-64.
I then have to know which stop is wired to each input terminal on each card.
I know because I connected them.

Regards
Rick

Post by John Beach
Lynn, thanks for your input. I knew most of what you stated below, but I
was not sure about the meta data channel since I have looked at jOrgan
Recorder-produced midi files in an external sequencer program and some have
no data at all except the keyboard names, Swell, Great, Pedal. They don't
even show note-on/note-off. Others do show note-on/note-off, but show no
metadata track.
Given the express purpose for MIDI, it is really rather pointless that
interfacing is stymied by a lack of standardization which defies the
concept.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: Lynn Walls
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2017 11:37 AM
To: John Beach
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] jOrgan Recorder Disposition-Proprietary Data
channel?
jOrgan Recorder does NOT record Console element changes as MIDI. Every
event (stop
change, coupler change, etc.) in the jOrgan Recorder MIDI file is encoded as
a Metadata
message (which is NOT MIDI!!!). Hence none of these control changes are
associated with
ANY MIDI channel whatsoever.
Only the actual Note-On/Note-Off messages corresponding to actual musical
notes being
played (not stop changes, expression or anything else) appear in the jOrgan
MIDI file as
actual MIDI messages...and even they are not organized by MIDI channel, but
rather by "Track".
And of course "Tracks" (like Metatdata) in a standard MIDI file are NOT even
MIDI. They
are only MIDI file organization and commentary concepts.
So far, the only renderer (player) that can read a jOrgan MIDI file and
interpret its
Metadata and Track structure properly is jOrgan itself!
CLW
-------------------------------------------------------------------

g***@gmail.com

2017-06-02 01:29:48 UTC

Permalink

Here is another MIDI replay. A bit more up beat this time.

Regards
Rick

Post by g***@gmail.com
Hi John
Thanks for your comments. I'm glad you enjoyed watching some of my clips.
I should really start thinking about some new stuff.
The MIDI sequencer you are using sounds interesting. Seems unfortunate
they haven't kept going with it.
I am finding Anvil Studio is able to show everything I need in a MIDI
file. The Event List function shows all the stop changes in a jOrgan
recording as comments. Each line can also be edited.
The Z-Tronics recorder/playback system we have installed on the real
Christie has Input cards monitoring the stops. Each card connects to up to
64 stops. (We have 171 stops so almost fill 3 cards). Each card connects to
a different MIDI channel.
So we get Channel 9, 10, 11. CC80 On, CC81 Off, Number 1-64.
I then have to know which stop is wired to each input terminal on each card.
I know because I connected them.
Regards
Rick

g***@gmail.com

2017-06-02 05:22:56 UTC

Permalink

For those interested.
The latest updates to the jOrgan "Christie" disposition with all the
updates discussed. Those that want to go digging will see the messages on
each stop enabling them to be triggered from external MIDI.
I have included two MIDI files recorded into the internal jOrgan recorder
from the Tony Fenelon concert. These are for personal use only and not to
be recorded or distributed in any way.

http://tcptechnology.com.au/vtpo/

I trust the package is as default as possible and will easily open and run
on anyone's system. I welcome all feedback.

Regards
Rick

Post by g***@gmail.com
Here is another MIDI replay. A bit more up beat this time.
http://youtu.be/i44F9oGwgRA
Regards
Rick

Post by John Beach
Does anyone know what MIDI channel, (or if it is fixed or floating),
jOrgan Recorder uses to record and playback the

disposition-proprietary,

Post by John Beach
Console element changes which are made during a performance.

John Reimer

2017-06-03 02:25:54 UTC

Permalink

Post by g***@gmail.com
I am finding Anvil Studio is able to show everything I need in a MIDI
file. The Event List function shows all the stop changes in a jOrgan
recording as comments. Each line can also be edited.

g***@gmail.com

2017-06-04 01:38:33 UTC

Permalink

Thanks John

I am pleased you have been able to see this, and add a new skill capability
to your jOrgan work.

Regards
Rick

Post by John Reimer

John Reimer

2017-06-05 01:42:00 UTC

Permalink

Post by John Reimer
I installed Anvil Studio and tried it out.

John Beach

2017-06-04 02:37:31 UTC

Permalink

Apparently, the metadata storage within a .mid file produced by the jOrgan Recorder is different from that
of the Standard Midi File which treats Program Change, Volume and Expression changes as Midi Channel Messages. Since a jOrgan disposition is, in effect, a kind of System Exclusive content, for which the Standard Midi File has no source of reference, such as it does for General Midi, it does not have the ability to list stops, couplers, combinations or anything in a jOrgan disposition which is comparable to System Exclusive. It must have been the only way that the extensible capabilities of jOrgan with respect to console elements and their changes could be dealt with, given the lack of a standardized Organ Midi Soundbank, or the limitation of one voice per channel which is imposed by the Midi Standard. It is a âwork-aroundâ which is a mystery but which
allows these capabilities. I am curious about it since I donât understand how the limitation is overcome. Unless it is the equivalent of, or comparable to, the layering concept in Presets with multiple Instruments which, then
would sound together on the same Midi Channel, there are simply not enough Midi Channels to effectuate the
play of the large number of stops which one can draw in a large disposition. But the fact that no Program Changes are listed in the (Channel) Event Lists of the midi files produced by jOrgan Recorder indicates
that, without a programmed source of reference, Midi takes no account of what, seemingly, must be recognized
programming language which has to comport with the Midi Standard. Is the concept of a âDisposition Sysex Analyzer,â a plausible or valuable one? Certainly, it is far more than the simple Preset List of an Organ Stop Soundfont. If there were the capability to ascertain the stop specification of a disposition used to produce a midi file, there is no way that multiple stop changes, as combinations, for example, could be entered in the Event List of a Standard Midi File, given the one Program Change per Midi Channel limitation.
GM works because 000=Acoustic Piano for every single General Midi Instrument or Soundcard, unlike 000=whatever in every individual Soundfont for a disposition created by jOrgan users. If the disposition is available, there is no need for such a âDisposition Sysex Analyzer.â It is only when one might wish to play a .mid file without an organ disposition, that might want to know the stops and changes, combinations, etc., used during its creation or the performance.

John Beach

From: ***@gmail.com
Sent: Saturday, June 3, 2017 9:38 PM
To: jorgan
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Fw: jOrgan Recorder Disposition-Proprietary Data channel?

Thanks John

I am pleased you have been able to see this, and add a new skill capability to your jOrgan work.

Regards
Rick

Rick,
I installed Anvil Studio and tried it out. I opened a jOrgan MIDI file and
although it showed three tracks and identified them as Great, Swell and
Pedal, no events appeared in the âpiano rollâ window or in the Events List.
However, noting JohnBâs experience of having some jOrgan MIDI files show
events and some not doing so, I made a new file which included stop changes
as well as notes played, firstly on the Great and then on the Swell. With
this new file opened, Anvil Studio then certainly showed the notes-on and
notes-off in both the piano roll and the Events List, but I could not find
any references anywhere to stop changes. It still showed only the three
tracks as mentioned above, but not the track where the stop change
information is located.

My success with the file I made for the purposes of this test suggests to me
that Anvil Studio picks up and shows at least the notes-on and notes-off
information, provided that the jOrgan MIDI file has been made and saved
normally and not âfiddled withâ in some way and then re-saved (Iâm only
guessing).

Because Anvil Studio allows the editing of the details it shows in the
Events List, this could well be a useful way forward for users who wish to
âimproveâ jOrgan MIDI files they have made if they wish to correct or remove
wrong notes, or they need to adjust some of the timing. Indeed, I tried this
out by deleting one of the notes and changing the pitch of another note, and
then doing a âSave Asâ. jOrgan played this new file with no problems, and
the changes I made were faithfully rendered. A bit of magic, I felt. I seem
to recall a Forum thread a couple of years ago, where this facility was
being sought for jOrgan MIDI files, and there seemed to be no satisfactory
solution.

John Reimer

--
View this message in context: http://jorgan.999862.n4.nabble.com/Fw-jOrgan-Recorder-Disposition-Proprietary-Data-channel-tp4665016p4665035.html
Sent from the jOrgan - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

g***@gmail.com

2017-06-04 05:24:46 UTC

Permalink

Hello John

I don't understand why you keep trying to push a standard organ MIDI barrow.
There isn't one.
An organ does not lend its self to be played direct as a Soundfont. The
number of possible registration options and pitch variations prohibit this.
It is in this dilemma that jOrgan shines. A MIDI interpreter to bridge the
gap.

I know for a fact that Sven pondered long and hard about how to implement a
MIDI record / playback system. What he has given us is a great tool.

This tool does what it is intended to do very well, but it doesn't
eliminate the work needed to be done to transfer a MIDI file from one
instrument to another.

I personally am not in favor of MIDI files being replayed on different
instruments. I believe every note of a performance is played according to
the registration and the room. If these two aspects can't be faithfully
recreated then I would rather not listen to the result. Further, MIDI files
created in a MIDI score program sound awful to me.

If you have access to MIDI files of real performances, you will need to
create a jOrgan disposition of the exact specification of that organ and
work out exactly what console function each MIDI message relates to. As a
completely separate issue, the sounds triggered by the jOrgan output would
need to be configured in the disposition.

The stops in a jOrgan MIDI file can be seen as text in an event list. If
your MIDI program doesn't show them then you should look using a different
program. I'm not saying the information is clear. It would take some
working out, but it is written in text with the names of stops.

Regards
Rick

Post by John Beach
Apparently, the metadata storage within a .mid file produced by the jOrgan
Recorder is different from that
of the Standard Midi File which treats Program Change, Volume and
Expression changes as Midi Channel Messages. Since a jOrgan disposition
is, in effect, a kind of System Exclusive content, for which the Standard
Midi File has no source of reference, such as it does for General Midi, it
does not have the ability to list stops, couplers, combinations or anything
in a jOrgan disposition which is comparable to System Exclusive. It must
have been the only way that the extensible capabilities of jOrgan with
respect to console elements and their changes could be dealt with, given
the lack of a standardized Organ Midi Soundbank, or the limitation of one
voice per channel which is imposed by the Midi Standard. It is a
âwork-aroundâ which is a mystery but which
allows these capabilities. I am curious about it since I donât understand
how the limitation is overcome. Unless it is the equivalent of, or
comparable to, the layering concept in Presets with multiple Instruments
which, then
would sound together on the same Midi Channel, there are simply not enough
Midi Channels to effectuate the
play of the large number of stops which one can draw in a large
disposition. But the fact that no Program Changes are listed in the
(Channel) Event Lists of the midi files produced by jOrgan Recorder
indicates
that, without a programmed source of reference, Midi takes no account of
what, seemingly, must be recognized
programming language which has to comport with the Midi Standard. Is the
concept of a âDisposition Sysex Analyzer,â a plausible or valuable one?
Certainly, it is far more than the simple Preset List of an Organ Stop
Soundfont. If there were the capability to ascertain the stop
specification of a disposition used to produce a midi file, there is no way
that multiple stop changes, as combinations, for example, could be entered
in the Event List of a Standard Midi File, given the one Program Change per
Midi Channel limitation.
GM works because 000=Acoustic Piano for every single General Midi
Instrument or Soundcard, unlike 000=whatever in every individual Soundfont
for a disposition created by jOrgan users. If the disposition is
available, there is no need for such a âDisposition Sysex Analyzer.â It is
only when one might wish to play a .mid file without an organ disposition,
that might want to know the stops and changes, combinations, etc., used
during its creation or the performance.
John Beach
*Sent:* Saturday, June 3, 2017 9:38 PM
*To:* jorgan
*Subject:* Re: [jOrgan-user] Fw: jOrgan Recorder Disposition-Proprietary
Data channel?
Thanks John
I am pleased you have been able to see this, and add a new skill
capability to your jOrgan work.
Regards
Rick

Post by John Reimer

------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------
------------------
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engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
------------------------------
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https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jorgan-user
------------------------------------------------------------
------------------
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engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
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Lynn Walls

2017-06-04 14:07:07 UTC

Permalink

Absolutely! It's about time that we all get over the fact that the "MIDI" file created by
the jOrgan recorder is "MIDI" only in its general file structure. The ONLY thing truly
MIDI about a jOrgan Recorder file is the Note-On/Off message stream that "corresponds" to
the musical notes being played on the Keybaords. And even these Note-On/Off messages are
all generated on channel 1 and distributed across "Tracks" corresponding to the source
Keyboards. (Note that MIDI file "Tracks" are only a file structure concept and NOT a part
of MIDI, per se.)

A jOrgan "MIDI" file is playable ONLY by jOrgan itself with any reasonable degree of
authenticity, because ONLY jOrgan knows how to interpret the Metadata "comments" into
which all Stop changes and Expression changes are encoded.

Sure, you can load a jOrgan file into a MIDI editor like Anvil Studio and manually
assign/modify the Note-On/Off messages, by Track, to different MIDI channels.

But you still have the problem of Stop changes and Expression changes which are ONLY
encoded in the jOrgan file in the form of COMMENTS (Meta messages) -- and ONLY
programmatically interpretable by jOrgan itself.

So, about the only thing you can reasonable expect to get from a jOrgan Recorder file that
you can use anywhere but in actual jOrgan playback are the Note On/Off messages, and then,
only after manually re-assigning their MIDI channels.

CLW
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Post by John Beach
An organ does not lend its self to be played direct as a Soundfont. The number of possible
registration options and pitch variations prohibit this.
It is in this dilemma that jOrgan shines. A MIDI interpreter to bridge the gap.

John Beach

2017-06-04 15:29:37 UTC

Permalink

Lynn said,
" And even these Note-On/Off messages are all generated on channel 1 and
distributed across "Tracks" corresponding to the source Keyboards. (Note
that MIDI file "Tracks" are only a file structure concept and NOT a part of
MIDI, per se.)"

In some jOrgan-Recorder-produced .mid files, when the note-on/note-off
messages are shown in all the tracks of the different divisions of a
disposition which have been used to produce it, those tracks can be assigned
the midi channel number of the division, just as in the Customizer of
jOrgan. All note-on/note off messages for an organ division (e.g. Swell)
are transmitted on one midi channel, and the individual stops in that
division, when activated,
are a track concept enabling layering of presets within one MIDI channel,
increasing directly relative to the number of activated stops. This,
obviously, draws on the soundfont presets (which are numbered) and overcomes
the MIDI-protocol-imposed limitation of one Program Change per MIDI Channel,
a kind of "reverse engineering."
Hierarchically, the Note-On/Note-Off messages ARE the midi channel and any
Program Change or Preset within a soundfont/bank can play those
note-on/note-off messages. Just as the wave file is, essentially, the
instrument, needing a specification of parameters for exactly HOW it is to
be sounded. Is it just a matter of perspective, or could the Midi Protocol
have been set up to assign a Preset or Program Change to a Track of
note-on/note-off messages instead of having a Midi Channel of
note-on/note-off messages limited to one Preset or Program Change? The
fact is that the Midi Protocol does not allow more than one Preset or
Program Change per MIDI Channel and tracks, in a MIDI sequencer program,
must be assigned different MIDI channel numbers in order to play a Preset or
Program Change which is different than the first Program Change assigned to
the first MIDI channel with note-on/note-off messages. If and since the
limitation can be overcome by metadata comments, could it not have been
specified in the original MIDI specification to better fulfill the purpose
for MIDI?

John

Roy Radford

2017-06-04 18:07:49 UTC

Permalink

Funny you should say that, Lynn, dunno about Anvil Studio, I've never
seen it but I can tell you this. You can load a jOrgan MIDI file into
Rosegarden, do nothing with it, save it, and when you put it back into
jOrgan, IT DOESN'T WORK!

No idea why but, from the discussions on here, I'm guessing Rosegarden
doesn't handle the meta data properly and changes things it has no business
changing.

Have fun,

Roy.

Post by Lynn Walls
Absolutely! It's about time that we all get over the fact that the "MIDI"
file created by the jOrgan recorder is "MIDI" only in its general file
structure. The ONLY thing truly MIDI about a jOrgan Recorder file is the
Note-On/Off message stream that "corresponds" to the musical notes being
played on the Keybaords. And even these Note-On/Off messages are all
generated on channel 1 and distributed across "Tracks" corresponding to the
source Keyboards. (Note that MIDI file "Tracks" are only a file structure
concept and NOT a part of MIDI, per se.)
A jOrgan "MIDI" file is playable ONLY by jOrgan itself with any reasonable
degree of authenticity, because ONLY jOrgan knows how to interpret the
Metadata "comments" into which all Stop changes and Expression changes are
encoded.
Sure, you can load a jOrgan file into a MIDI editor like Anvil Studio and
manually assign/modify the Note-On/Off messages, by Track, to different
MIDI channels.
But you still have the problem of Stop changes and Expression changes
which are ONLY encoded in the jOrgan file in the form of COMMENTS (Meta
messages) -- and ONLY programmatically interpretable by jOrgan itself.
So, about the only thing you can reasonable expect to get from a jOrgan
Recorder file that you can use anywhere but in actual jOrgan playback are
the Note On/Off messages, and then, only after manually re-assigning their
MIDI channels.
CLW
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
An organ does not lend its self to be played direct as a Soundfont. The

Post by g***@gmail.com
number of possible registration options and pitch variations prohibit this.
It is in this dilemma that jOrgan shines. A MIDI interpreter to bridge the gap.

John Beach

2017-06-04 07:53:30 UTC

Permalink

Rick, I think you misunderstood my intention in the last posting. I am not âpushing a standard organ Midi barrow.â The fact is that MIDI was developed for the purpose of being able to daisy-chain instruments and
to be able to use pre-recorded material. Given the ease and variety of recorded media, vinyl records, trax, MP3 and USB storage devices today , the concept of MIDI, essentially, the piano roll of note-on/note-off messages is lucky to have survived. After all, it requires, at a minimum, Media Player, a soft-synth with gm.dls or a sequencer program, a USB stick or an external instrument/Midi controller.

The unique abilities of virtual organ programs, solely as a cost factor relative to the quality of sounds they produce, are what make them desirable.
Had pipe organs been readily affordable, Hammond and Markowitz would be anomalies in the pages of history.
That said, the role that MIDI plays in jOrgan with respect to MPL, and how jOrgan metadata is, specifically, different is that which affects the âcommunicationâ for which MIDI was, actually, developed. How the metadata aspects of jOrgan differ from, say, GrandOrgue or Hauptwerk, in terms of the proprietary means used to communicate that metadata for playback in each program is also the extent to which they defy the definition of âcommunicationâ for the purpose of communication. What is not common to each is that which prevents communication.

We know, for example, that note-on/note-off is common to all. Much as I can hear a foreign language, but not be able to understand that language, I am bewildered by what I hear. There is a limitation which exists and I am aware of it. You mentioned âhow long Sven pondered over the implementation of the Recorder.â My point, exactly! Frustration? Or how, from a programmers perspective, to implement, or write the particulars of it? I donât know. I do know that as I have grown older, I talk to myself. This does no one else any good, but it is the expression of a human ability more than a need. I am not sure if it contributes to sanity or if it is an indication that oneâs sanity is questionable. The fact is that, while I could function just as well without talking to myself, I could not function just as well without talking to others! Why we have this forum
it to communicate, not, to develop a means by which we do not have to communicate.
Many years ago, I recall reading in an Encyclopedia Britannica article a statement to the effect that âthe use of standard language moves people around in the realm.â It does, whether we actually think about it in those terms or not.
My point is that the concept of a âstandard sound bankâ is fundamental, regardless of the âaccentsâ which identify it as unique to the speaker. It is the basis of what communication is. So, with MIDI and proprietary metadata, which is ânativeâ and which is âforeign,â by analogy, is what allows or impedes communication.

My disposition is not your disposition, but can both play a .mid file of Mendelsohnâs Organ Sonata I, using the organ stops which he intended to be used? Or, can I play your .mid rendition of âBeautiful Dreamerâ on my disposition, using the organ stops which you used, or intended to be used? This is my perception of what MIDI was, and is, to accomplish. Chances are that an MP3 file of either would be of less size than the totality of the Java Runtime Environment, jOrgan 3.20, the disposition, and it allows for ready playability, too. But it is the particulars of MIDI and Metadata which allow for the production of the MP3 file.
It is not as if we are looking for grace where adherence to the law is not a possibility. We are looking for adherence to the law to effectuate the possibility and the purpose for it. I can make a perceptible change in loudness using either CC#7 or CC#11. I can only have one instance of each referencing the source of the sound, otherwise, there is no sound because they conflict, somehow.

jOrgan is great! It is great because of Metadata, which distinguishes it from MIDI. While âA rose by any other name is still a rose,â arguably, in the organ, âa flute, by any other name is NOT a flute.â If I am not supposed to think of MIDI as the âmediumâ by which the interfacing of musical instruments is, digitally, effectuated, they âcommunicateâ using the same language, then it is a misnomer.

That is my point, simply.

John

From: ***@gmail.com
Sent: Sunday, June 4, 2017 1:24 AM
To: jorgan
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Fw: Fw: jOrgan Recorder Disposition-Proprietary Data channel?

Hello John

I don't understand why you keep trying to push a standard organ MIDI barrow.
There isn't one.
An organ does not lend its self to be played direct as a Soundfont. The number of possible registration options and pitch variations prohibit this.
It is in this dilemma that jOrgan shines. A MIDI interpreter to bridge the gap.

I know for a fact that Sven pondered long and hard about how to implement a MIDI record / playback system. What he has given us is a great tool.

This tool does what it is intended to do very well, but it doesn't eliminate the work needed to be done to transfer a MIDI file from one instrument to another.

I personally am not in favor of MIDI files being replayed on different instruments. I believe every note of a performance is played according to the registration and the room. If these two aspects can't be faithfully recreated then I would rather not listen to the result. Further, MIDI files created in a MIDI score program sound awful to me.

If you have access to MIDI files of real performances, you will need to create a jOrgan disposition of the exact specification of that organ and work out exactly what console function each MIDI message relates to. As a completely separate issue, the sounds triggered by the jOrgan output would need to be configured in the disposition.

The stops in a jOrgan MIDI file can be seen as text in an event list. If your MIDI program doesn't show them then you should look using a different program. I'm not saying the information is clear. It would take some working out, but it is written in text with the names of stops.

Regards
Rick

On 4 Jun 2017 12:38 pm, "John Beach" <***@fairpoint.net> wrote:

Apparently, the metadata storage within a .mid file produced by the jOrgan Recorder is different from that
of the Standard Midi File which treats Program Change, Volume and Expression changes as Midi Channel Messages. Since a jOrgan disposition is, in effect, a kind of System Exclusive content, for which the Standard Midi File has no source of reference, such as it does for General Midi, it does not have the ability to list stops, couplers, combinations or anything in a jOrgan disposition which is comparable to System Exclusive. It must have been the only way that the extensible capabilities of jOrgan with respect to console elements and their changes could be dealt with, given the lack of a standardized Organ Midi Soundbank, or the limitation of one voice per channel which is imposed by the Midi Standard. It is a âwork-aroundâ which is a mystery but which
allows these capabilities. I am curious about it since I donât understand how the limitation is overcome. Unless it is the equivalent of, or comparable to, the layering concept in Presets with multiple Instruments which, then
would sound together on the same Midi Channel, there are simply not enough Midi Channels to effectuate the
play of the large number of stops which one can draw in a large disposition. But the fact that no Program Changes are listed in the (Channel) Event Lists of the midi files produced by jOrgan Recorder indicates
that, without a programmed source of reference, Midi takes no account of what, seemingly, must be recognized
programming language which has to comport with the Midi Standard. Is the concept of a âDisposition Sysex Analyzer,â a plausible or valuable one? Certainly, it is far more than the simple Preset List of an Organ Stop Soundfont. If there were the capability to ascertain the stop specification of a disposition used to produce a midi file, there is no way that multiple stop changes, as combinations, for example, could be entered in the Event List of a Standard Midi File, given the one Program Change per Midi Channel limitation.
GM works because 000=Acoustic Piano for every single General Midi Instrument or Soundcard, unlike 000=whatever in every individual Soundfont for a disposition created by jOrgan users. If the disposition is available, there is no need for such a âDisposition Sysex Analyzer.â It is only when one might wish to play a .mid file without an organ disposition, that might want to know the stops and changes, combinations, etc., used during its creation or the performance.

John Beach

From: ***@gmail.com
Sent: Saturday, June 3, 2017 9:38 PM
To: jorgan
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Fw: jOrgan Recorder Disposition-Proprietary Data channel?

Thanks John

I am pleased you have been able to see this, and add a new skill capability to your jOrgan work.

Regards
Rick

John Beach

2017-06-04 20:11:25 UTC

Permalink

Roy, I have that one figured out.....it is âI beg your pardon, I never promised you a Rosegarden....â it is just living up to its name!

John B.

From: Roy Radford
Sent: Sunday, June 4, 2017 2:07 PM
To: jorgan-user
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Fw: Fw: jOrgan Recorder Disposition-Proprietary Data channel?

Funny you should say that, Lynn, dunno about Anvil Studio, I've never seen it but I can tell you this. You can load a jOrgan MIDI file into Rosegarden, do nothing with it, save it, and when you put it back into jOrgan, IT DOESN'T WORK!

No idea why but, from the discussions on here, I'm guessing Rosegarden doesn't handle the meta data properly and changes things it has no business changing.

Have fun,

Roy.

On 4 June 2017 at 15:07, Lynn Walls <***@gmail.com> wrote:

Absolutely! It's about time that we all get over the fact that the "MIDI" file created by the jOrgan recorder is "MIDI" only in its general file structure. The ONLY thing truly MIDI about a jOrgan Recorder file is the Note-On/Off message stream that "corresponds" to the musical notes being played on the Keybaords. And even these Note-On/Off messages are all generated on channel 1 and distributed across "Tracks" corresponding to the source Keyboards. (Note that MIDI file "Tracks" are only a file structure concept and NOT a part of MIDI, per se.)

A jOrgan "MIDI" file is playable ONLY by jOrgan itself with any reasonable degree of authenticity, because ONLY jOrgan knows how to interpret the Metadata "comments" into which all Stop changes and Expression changes are encoded.

Sure, you can load a jOrgan file into a MIDI editor like Anvil Studio and manually assign/modify the Note-On/Off messages, by Track, to different MIDI channels.

But you still have the problem of Stop changes and Expression changes which are ONLY encoded in the jOrgan file in the form of COMMENTS (Meta messages) -- and ONLY programmatically interpretable by jOrgan itself.

So, about the only thing you can reasonable expect to get from a jOrgan Recorder file that you can use anywhere but in actual jOrgan playback are the Note On/Off messages, and then, only after manually re-assigning their MIDI channels.

CLW
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 6/4/2017 1:24 AM, ***@gmail.com wrote:

An organ does not lend its self to be played direct as a Soundfont. The number of possible registration options and pitch variations prohibit this.
It is in this dilemma that jOrgan shines. A MIDI interpreter to bridge the gap.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
jOrgan-user mailing list
jOrgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jorgan-user

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Roy Radford

2017-06-04 20:25:13 UTC

Permalink

WAY O/T...

You know something, John, when you really get down to it you can be just
as daft as I am! [image: *:)) laughing]

Have fun,

Roy.

Post by John Beach
Roy, I have that one figured out.....it is âI beg your pardon, I never
promised you a Rosegarden....â it is just living up to its name!
John B.
*From:* Roy Radford
*Sent:* Sunday, June 4, 2017 2:07 PM
*To:* jorgan-user
*Subject:* Re: [jOrgan-user] Fw: Fw: jOrgan Recorder
Disposition-Proprietary Data channel?
Funny you should say that, Lynn, dunno about Anvil Studio, I've never
seen it but I can tell you this. You can load a jOrgan MIDI file into
Rosegarden, do nothing with it, save it, and when you put it back into
jOrgan, IT DOESN'T WORK!
No idea why but, from the discussions on here, I'm guessing Rosegarden
doesn't handle the meta data properly and changes things it has no business
changing.
Have fun,
Roy.

Post by Lynn Walls
Absolutely! It's about time that we all get over the fact that the
"MIDI" file created by the jOrgan recorder is "MIDI" only in its general
file structure. The ONLY thing truly MIDI about a jOrgan Recorder file is
the Note-On/Off message stream that "corresponds" to the musical notes
being played on the Keybaords. And even these Note-On/Off messages are all
generated on channel 1 and distributed across "Tracks" corresponding to the
source Keyboards. (Note that MIDI file "Tracks" are only a file structure
concept and NOT a part of MIDI, per se.)
A jOrgan "MIDI" file is playable ONLY by jOrgan itself with any
reasonable degree of authenticity, because ONLY jOrgan knows how to
interpret the Metadata "comments" into which all Stop changes and
Expression changes are encoded.
Sure, you can load a jOrgan file into a MIDI editor like Anvil Studio and
manually assign/modify the Note-On/Off messages, by Track, to different
MIDI channels.
But you still have the problem of Stop changes and Expression changes
which are ONLY encoded in the jOrgan file in the form of COMMENTS (Meta
messages) -- and ONLY programmatically interpretable by jOrgan itself.
So, about the only thing you can reasonable expect to get from a jOrgan
Recorder file that you can use anywhere but in actual jOrgan playback are
the Note On/Off messages, and then, only after manually re-assigning their
MIDI channels.
CLW
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
An organ does not lend its self to be played direct as a Soundfont. The

Post by g***@gmail.com
number of possible registration options and pitch variations prohibit this.
It is in this dilemma that jOrgan shines. A MIDI interpreter to bridge the gap.

John Beach

2017-06-04 20:21:34 UTC

Permalink

Actually, I have a .mid file from when Sven first came out with the Recorder Sequencer several years ago. When I look at it in Midiglass, on Track 4, it shows every element in the entire disposition which has over 400 stops. They are all listed as TXT. Not sure this occurred because Channel One was the Swell of the division and it contains the note-on/note-off of the German Chorale, âHerzliebster Jesu, Wir Sind Hier.â Nothing else.

John B.

From: Roy Radford
Sent: Sunday, June 4, 2017 2:07 PM
To: jorgan-user
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Fw: Fw: jOrgan Recorder Disposition-Proprietary Data channel?

Funny you should say that, Lynn, dunno about Anvil Studio, I've never seen it but I can tell you this. You can load a jOrgan MIDI file into Rosegarden, do nothing with it, save it, and when you put it back into jOrgan, IT DOESN'T WORK!

No idea why but, from the discussions on here, I'm guessing Rosegarden doesn't handle the meta data properly and changes things it has no business changing.

Have fun,

Roy.

On 4 June 2017 at 15:07, Lynn Walls <***@gmail.com> wrote:

Absolutely! It's about time that we all get over the fact that the "MIDI" file created by the jOrgan recorder is "MIDI" only in its general file structure. The ONLY thing truly MIDI about a jOrgan Recorder file is the Note-On/Off message stream that "corresponds" to the musical notes being played on the Keybaords. And even these Note-On/Off messages are all generated on channel 1 and distributed across "Tracks" corresponding to the source Keyboards. (Note that MIDI file "Tracks" are only a file structure concept and NOT a part of MIDI, per se.)

A jOrgan "MIDI" file is playable ONLY by jOrgan itself with any reasonable degree of authenticity, because ONLY jOrgan knows how to interpret the Metadata "comments" into which all Stop changes and Expression changes are encoded.

Sure, you can load a jOrgan file into a MIDI editor like Anvil Studio and manually assign/modify the Note-On/Off messages, by Track, to different MIDI channels.

But you still have the problem of Stop changes and Expression changes which are ONLY encoded in the jOrgan file in the form of COMMENTS (Meta messages) -- and ONLY programmatically interpretable by jOrgan itself.

So, about the only thing you can reasonable expect to get from a jOrgan Recorder file that you can use anywhere but in actual jOrgan playback are the Note On/Off messages, and then, only after manually re-assigning their MIDI channels.

CLW
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 6/4/2017 1:24 AM, ***@gmail.com wrote:

An organ does not lend its self to be played direct as a Soundfont. The number of possible registration options and pitch variations prohibit this.
It is in this dilemma that jOrgan shines. A MIDI interpreter to bridge the gap.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
jOrgan-user mailing list
jOrgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jorgan-user

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Roy Radford

2017-06-04 20:45:29 UTC

Permalink

Maybe Midiglass doesn't understand all that foreign stuff! [image: *:))
laughing]

Have fun,

Roy.

Post by John Beach
Actually, I have a .mid file from when Sven first came out with the
Recorder Sequencer several years ago. When I look at it in Midiglass, on
Track 4, it shows every element in the entire disposition which has over
400 stops. They are all listed as TXT. Not sure this occurred because
Channel One was the Swell of the division and it contains the
note-on/note-off of the German Chorale, âHerzliebster Jesu, Wir Sind
Hier.â Nothing else.
John B.
*From:* Roy Radford
*Sent:* Sunday, June 4, 2017 2:07 PM
*To:* jorgan-user
*Subject:* Re: [jOrgan-user] Fw: Fw: jOrgan Recorder
Disposition-Proprietary Data channel?
Funny you should say that, Lynn, dunno about Anvil Studio, I've never
seen it but I can tell you this. You can load a jOrgan MIDI file into
Rosegarden, do nothing with it, save it, and when you put it back into
jOrgan, IT DOESN'T WORK!
No idea why but, from the discussions on here, I'm guessing Rosegarden
doesn't handle the meta data properly and changes things it has no business
changing.
Have fun,
Roy.

Post by Lynn Walls
Absolutely! It's about time that we all get over the fact that the
"MIDI" file created by the jOrgan recorder is "MIDI" only in its general
file structure. The ONLY thing truly MIDI about a jOrgan Recorder file is
the Note-On/Off message stream that "corresponds" to the musical notes
being played on the Keybaords. And even these Note-On/Off messages are all
generated on channel 1 and distributed across "Tracks" corresponding to the
source Keyboards. (Note that MIDI file "Tracks" are only a file structure
concept and NOT a part of MIDI, per se.)
A jOrgan "MIDI" file is playable ONLY by jOrgan itself with any
reasonable degree of authenticity, because ONLY jOrgan knows how to
interpret the Metadata "comments" into which all Stop changes and
Expression changes are encoded.
Sure, you can load a jOrgan file into a MIDI editor like Anvil Studio and
manually assign/modify the Note-On/Off messages, by Track, to different
MIDI channels.
But you still have the problem of Stop changes and Expression changes
which are ONLY encoded in the jOrgan file in the form of COMMENTS (Meta
messages) -- and ONLY programmatically interpretable by jOrgan itself.
So, about the only thing you can reasonable expect to get from a jOrgan
Recorder file that you can use anywhere but in actual jOrgan playback are
the Note On/Off messages, and then, only after manually re-assigning their
MIDI channels.
CLW
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
An organ does not lend its self to be played direct as a Soundfont. The

Post by g***@gmail.com
number of possible registration options and pitch variations prohibit this.
It is in this dilemma that jOrgan shines. A MIDI interpreter to bridge the gap.

John Beach

2017-06-05 07:52:49 UTC

Permalink

In Midi Glass, consistently, with a jOrgan, 6-division disposition, using 3
divisions in a jOrgan-recorder recorded Midi file, Midi Glass shows ALL
console elements on Track 6 using TXT. It shows these as (Status) Events on
the first beat (tick) of the first measure recorded. At the very bottom
(scrolled) of the list (Track 6) it shows the stops selected to play the
piece and the times (measure=bar #, beat # and click #) at which specific
stop changes were made and when General Cancel of all stops occurred at the
end. Although all the stops of a disposition are listed, I can not figure
out how the large 5-digit identifying numbers for each stop are derived.
They appear in brackets after the name and footage of each stop. Other
console elements, couplers, for example, have 3-digit designations. It
does not appear to be a combination of bank number and soundfont preset
number (for stops) , but rather some jOrgan-proprietary designation.
However, the same stops in the same disposition are assigned the same
identifying number in different recordings. So, apparently, they are
permanent, element identifiers in a disposition. Since these are readable,
as text, by such programs as Anvil Studio and Midi Glass, they are helpful
to know what stops of a disposition were used to produce the file and when
those stops were activated or cancelled. I have not yet ascertained whether
Combinations of Stops, as changes made by Piston during recording, are
indicated in the same area (the end of track 6), or whether the individual
stops of a Combination Piston Number are listed as the Piston Number or by
the names of the individual stops, (e.g., Piston 1=Sw-Bourdon 8' Sw-Octave
4' etc). I will do a little more specific analysis and let the forum know.
Given the obvious (to the mind, not the eye), complex sublayering which is
used, it is readily understandable why Sysex Translation or Equation
programs are not a plausible concept and why, if it is desirable or
necessary,
standardization is the logical basis on which interfacing is feasible.
Again, this says, merely, that Rohrflute 8',
for example, regardless of its quality, in any organ sound bank, would have
the same Program Change number.
Since, like 000-Acoustic Piano in General Midi, this is not established for
organ, individuality is the uniquely, identifying characteristic.
Proto-c-o-o-o-o-o-l gives us ............something or other.........!!!

John Beach

-----Original Message-----
From: John Reimer
Sent: Sunday, June 4, 2017 9:42 PM
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Fw: jOrgan Recorder Disposition-Proprietary Data
channel?

Post by John Reimer
I installed Anvil Studio and tried it out.

I have spent further time investigating Anvil Studio. It is clear that it
does indicate stop changes. (You click on Event List and choose Song
Properties in the scroll window, and then use the scroll bar to go down to
the bottom, where you will see listed any addition or subtraction of the
stops).

However, as it stands the program is not useful until you buy one of the
accessory packs. I think this may be the reason that it shows the notes-on
and notes-off for some jOrgan MIDI files, and not for others. I plan to buy
the cheapest (Multi-Audio 1/8 at US $19) and then report back.

John Reimer

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John Reimer

2017-06-05 11:36:48 UTC

Permalink

Post by John Beach
the same stops in the same disposition are assigned the same
identifying number in different recordings. So, apparently, they are
permanent, element identifiers in a disposition. Since these are readable,
as text, by such programs as Anvil Studio and Midi Glass, they are helpful
to know what stops of a disposition were used to produce the file and when
those stops were activated or cancelled.

John Reimer

2017-06-05 23:10:59 UTC

Permalink

for purely editing notes in a jOrgan MIDI file I use Aria Maestosa.

Chris P,

Thank you for this information. In response I installed Aria Maestosa on my
Windows 7 laptop, but couldn't get it to read the jOrgan MIDI file I tried.
I did get it to display a standard MIDI file from elsewhere, but with the
jOrgan one, it merely showed a black screen. So the mystery deepens.

John Reimer

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g***@gmail.com

2017-06-05 23:28:30 UTC

Permalink

Piston changes will not be recorded in a jOrgan MIDI recorded file. Only
the individual stops changed will be recorded using the special text and
numbers devised by Sven.
If Piston changes were recorded, it would then be necessary for the correct
memory level to be selected prior to replay and that the combinations had
not been changed in that memory level.

Post by John Beach
In Midi Glass, consistently, with a jOrgan, 6-division disposition, using 3
divisions in a jOrgan-recorder recorded Midi file, Midi Glass shows ALL
console elements on Track 6 using TXT. It shows these as (Status) Events on
the first beat (tick) of the first measure recorded. At the very bottom
(scrolled) of the list (Track 6) it shows the stops selected to play the
piece and the times (measure=bar #, beat # and click #) at which specific
stop changes were made and when General Cancel of all stops occurred at the
end. Although all the stops of a disposition are listed, I can not figure
out how the large 5-digit identifying numbers for each stop are derived.
They appear in brackets after the name and footage of each stop. Other
console elements, couplers, for example, have 3-digit designations. It
does not appear to be a combination of bank number and soundfont preset
number (for stops) , but rather some jOrgan-proprietary designation.
However, the same stops in the same disposition are assigned the same
identifying number in different recordings. So, apparently, they are
permanent, element identifiers in a disposition. Since these are readable,
as text, by such programs as Anvil Studio and Midi Glass, they are helpful
to know what stops of a disposition were used to produce the file and when
those stops were activated or cancelled. I have not yet ascertained whether
Combinations of Stops, as changes made by Piston during recording, are
indicated in the same area (the end of track 6), or whether the individual
stops of a Combination Piston Number are listed as the Piston Number or by
the names of the individual stops, (e.g., Piston 1=Sw-Bourdon 8' Sw-Octave
4' etc). I will do a little more specific analysis and let the forum know.
Given the obvious (to the mind, not the eye), complex sublayering which is
used, it is readily understandable why Sysex Translation or Equation
programs are not a plausible concept and why, if it is desirable or
necessary,
standardization is the logical basis on which interfacing is feasible.
Again, this says, merely, that Rohrflute 8',
for example, regardless of its quality, in any organ sound bank, would have
the same Program Change number.
Since, like 000-Acoustic Piano in General Midi, this is not established for
organ, individuality is the uniquely, identifying characteristic.
Proto-c-o-o-o-o-o-l gives us ............something or other.........!!!
John Beach
-----Original Message-----
From: John Reimer
Sent: Sunday, June 4, 2017 9:42 PM
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Fw: jOrgan Recorder Disposition-Proprietary Data
channel?

Post by John Reimer
I installed Anvil Studio and tried it out.

I have spent further time investigating Anvil Studio. It is clear that it
does indicate stop changes. (You click on Event List and choose Song
Properties in the scroll window, and then use the scroll bar to go down to
the bottom, where you will see listed any addition or subtraction of the
stops).
However, as it stands the program is not useful until you buy one of the
accessory packs. I think this may be the reason that it shows the notes-on
and notes-off for some jOrgan MIDI files, and not for others. I plan to buy
the cheapest (Multi-Audio 1/8 at US $19) and then report back.
John Reimer
--
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g***@gmail.com

2017-06-05 23:49:57 UTC

Permalink

Hello John

I am not sure what you are doing with Anvil Studio?

In the free version of Anvil Studio, I am able to modify a jOrgan created
MIDI file. It is possible to change pitch and duration of a note in a
selected track in the Composer View and in the Piano Roll Editor. It is
also possible to edit and delete the text messages in the View Event list.

I can't see any way within jOrgan to view the code number assigned to every
stop, however if you open a disposition file using a html viewer you can
see these numbers. It would take some significant work to dig through and
make legible sense of this though.

Regards
Rick

Post by g***@gmail.com
Piston changes will not be recorded in a jOrgan MIDI recorded file. Only
the individual stops changed will be recorded using the special text and
numbers devised by Sven.
If Piston changes were recorded, it would then be necessary for the
correct memory level to be selected prior to replay and that the
combinations had not been changed in that memory level.

Post by John Reimer
I installed Anvil Studio and tried it out.

I have spent further time investigating Anvil Studio. It is clear that it
does indicate stop changes. (You click on Event List and choose Song
Properties in the scroll window, and then use the scroll bar to go down to
the bottom, where you will see listed any addition or subtraction of the
stops).
However, as it stands the program is not useful until you buy one of the
accessory packs. I think this may be the reason that it shows the notes-on
and notes-off for some jOrgan MIDI files, and not for others. I plan to buy
the cheapest (Multi-Audio 1/8 at US $19) and then report back.
John Reimer
--
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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John Reimer

2017-06-05 23:45:56 UTC

Permalink

Post by g***@gmail.com
I am not sure what you are doing with Anvil Studio?

g***@gmail.com

2017-06-06 00:18:39 UTC

Permalink

Hi again John

I just tried an edit then replayed the file. The edit I intended did work,
however the accompaniment got merged with the solo.
I will try again and see what I can sort out.

Regards
Rick

Post by John Reimer

Post by g***@gmail.com
I am not sure what you are doing with Anvil Studio?

Rick,
I am not sure either. I would love to know. For starters, what about sending
me as an email attachment, a jOrgan MIDI file you find you can edit, so that
I can try it out. I am feeling progressively more and more frustrated about
the whole thing.
John Reimer
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John Beach

2017-06-05 13:35:36 UTC

Permalink

In outputting the playback of a jOrgan-disposition, recorder-produced .mid
file using MidiGlass for the playback via Loopbe virtual midi cable
inputting to the same disposition, while the note-on/note off messages are
transmitted to jOrgan, they are all transmitted on Channel 1 and, thus, they
are not played by the divisions having other Channel numbers. All
note-on/note-off messages to to the Swell Manual (channel 1). None of the
jOrgan-proprietary metadata, shown on Track 6 of MidiGlass, is, apparently,
transmitted back to jOrgan to inform it in the same manner in which the
Recorder function of jOrgan does. Would this be possible with some
kind of MPL in the Messages section of jOrgan to "Intercept" such metadata.

Given the capability of the jOrgan Recorder, while this is a totally
unnecessary thing to do, it is the specific need to understand how metadata
is handled by MIDI and why, when MIDI can list all the metadata in an
external MIDI sequencer program, it has the limitation of not being able to
transmit that same data back to the program from which it received it to
effectuate what MPL effectuates or what jOrgan-proprietary "comments"
effectuate with respect to the innerworkings of the console elements of a
jOrgan disposition. Perhaps, Lynn can inform us how or why this disparity
exists. I am surmising that it is the difference between .txt messages,
identifying elements and the power of Controller-type messages which
activate, deactivate, engage and disengage elements within the time frame of
the note-on/note-off messages which are the single, most important aspect of
a .mid file.
The MIDI Sequencer program which I use most often allows one to create
(following a specified format) proprietary Patch/Program Change/Preset Lists
and to create one's own .syx (SYSEX) files which can be both loaded and
edited in the Sequencer program. While I have used the former to create
lists of the Presets of Organ Soundbanks based on Soundfonts, I have never
actually created a .syx file which specified the proprietary data of the
disposition of a program such as jOrgan. I am content to be thankful for
all the work Sven did to make this possible, since it seems like a rather
awesome task.
Is the future of MIDI, especially proprietary metadata, in XML, and is this
the solution to the ready translation or equation of different, although not
incompatible, specifications with respect to switch-effectuated, sound
schemes based on unspecified, individual soundbanks or soundfonts, such as
jOrgan is capable of creating and dealing with?

I also discovered that if I, manually, add the midi channel number (6) to
the jOrgan-proprietary metadata track in the MIDI Sequencer program, it
apparently erases all the data because, after doing so, only the track
identification shows and no metadata (the entire element list of a
disposition) is shown. Not sure why this occurs, but it is so.

John B.

-----Original Message-----
From: John Reimer
Sent: Monday, June 5, 2017 7:36 AM
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Fw: Fw: jOrgan Recorder Disposition-Proprietary
Data channel?

Post by John Beach
the same stops in the same disposition are assigned the same
identifying number in different recordings. So, apparently, they are
permanent, element identifiers in a disposition. Since these are
readable,
as text, by such programs as Anvil Studio and Midi Glass, they are helpful
to know what stops of a disposition were used to produce the file and when
those stops were activated or cancelled.

Yes, that is my conclusion also.

However, I have to report no success with Anvil Studio even with the
accessory installed. Nothing has changed. I did make another jOrgan MIDI
file which it read, but it would still not read the notes-on and notes-off
information of the others. The one difference that I can identify is that
the “successful” files had only one note at a time rather than chords being
played. I am not prepared to spend more time on this issue at the moment, as
I want to finish work on what will be my last jOrgan VPO for the time being
- an extension of the KOGARAH one.

As far as I can see, Anvil Studio could be useful in identifying the tracks
of standard MIDI files which one wants to use with jOrgan by means of a
sequencer, and also the stops being used in jOrgan MIDI files, but editing
of the notes being played in the jOrgan MIDI files still seems to be eluding
us.

John Reimer

--
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g***@gmail.com

2017-06-05 23:19:46 UTC

Permalink

Hello John

A MIDI file created by the recorder in jOrgan is intended for playback by
the MIDI player in jOrgan in that actual disposition. Even editing the
original disposition between record and playback could cause problems with
the accuracy of the replay.

Playing a MIDI file created by the recorder in a jOrgan disposition using
some other MIDI sequencer will render all information other than recognized
MIDI messages as useless. The text comments used by Sven for registration
changes will not be recognized by any MIDI software. They will not even be
recognized by a different jOrgan disposition.

Any use of this text information would need to be done by human
interpenetration with a detailed understanding of the disposition in which
it was created. I can't see how any code or MPL could assist with this.

Yes, the jOrgan recorder assigns each division to a track, each track
showing CH1. This can be changed in a MIDI editor like Anvil Studio.

My suggestion for assigning registration changes to a MIDI file being
played into a different disposition would be as follows:

Edit the MIDI file to have unique channel numbers for each division.
Edit the intended disposition to match these channels to divisions using
the Customizer.
Edit the MIDI file to have Program Change messages at suitably timed places
in the music.
Edit the intended disposition to match these Program Change messages to
Pistons in the disposition
Edit the combination memory to have suitable registration changes stored in
the Pistons
Play the edited MIDI file into jOrgan from an external MIDI sequencer
Record the performance using the MIDI recorder in the disposition.

You will now have a MIDI file ready for playback by the jOrgan MIDI player
in this specific disposition.

Regards
Rick

Post by John Beach
In outputting the playback of a jOrgan-disposition, recorder-produced .mid
file using MidiGlass for the playback via Loopbe virtual midi cable
inputting to the same disposition, while the note-on/note off messages are
transmitted to jOrgan, they are all transmitted on Channel 1 and, thus, they
are not played by the divisions having other Channel numbers. All
note-on/note-off messages to to the Swell Manual (channel 1). None of the
jOrgan-proprietary metadata, shown on Track 6 of MidiGlass, is, apparently,
transmitted back to jOrgan to inform it in the same manner in which the
Recorder function of jOrgan does. Would this be possible with some
kind of MPL in the Messages section of jOrgan to "Intercept" such metadata.
Given the capability of the jOrgan Recorder, while this is a totally
unnecessary thing to do, it is the specific need to understand how metadata
is handled by MIDI and why, when MIDI can list all the metadata in an
external MIDI sequencer program, it has the limitation of not being able to
transmit that same data back to the program from which it received it to
effectuate what MPL effectuates or what jOrgan-proprietary "comments"
effectuate with respect to the innerworkings of the console elements of a
jOrgan disposition. Perhaps, Lynn can inform us how or why this disparity
exists. I am surmising that it is the difference between .txt messages,
identifying elements and the power of Controller-type messages which
activate, deactivate, engage and disengage elements within the time frame of
the note-on/note-off messages which are the single, most important aspect of
a .mid file.
The MIDI Sequencer program which I use most often allows one to create
(following a specified format) proprietary Patch/Program Change/Preset Lists
and to create one's own .syx (SYSEX) files which can be both loaded and
edited in the Sequencer program. While I have used the former to create
lists of the Presets of Organ Soundbanks based on Soundfonts, I have never
actually created a .syx file which specified the proprietary data of the
disposition of a program such as jOrgan. I am content to be thankful for
all the work Sven did to make this possible, since it seems like a rather
awesome task.
Is the future of MIDI, especially proprietary metadata, in XML, and is this
the solution to the ready translation or equation of different, although not
incompatible, specifications with respect to switch-effectuated, sound
schemes based on unspecified, individual soundbanks or soundfonts, such as
jOrgan is capable of creating and dealing with?
I also discovered that if I, manually, add the midi channel number (6) to
the jOrgan-proprietary metadata track in the MIDI Sequencer program, it
apparently erases all the data because, after doing so, only the track
identification shows and no metadata (the entire element list of a
disposition) is shown. Not sure why this occurs, but it is so.
John B.
-----Original Message-----
From: John Reimer
Sent: Monday, June 5, 2017 7:36 AM
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Fw: Fw: jOrgan Recorder Disposition-Proprietary
Data channel?

Post by John Beach
the same stops in the same disposition are assigned the same
identifying number in different recordings. So, apparently, they are
permanent, element identifiers in a disposition. Since these are
readable,
as text, by such programs as Anvil Studio and Midi Glass, they are

helpful

Post by John Beach
to know what stops of a disposition were used to produce the file and

when

Post by John Beach
those stops were activated or cancelled.

Yes, that is my conclusion also.
However, I have to report no success with Anvil Studio even with the
accessory installed. Nothing has changed. I did make another jOrgan MIDI
file which it read, but it would still not read the notes-on and notes-off
information of the others. The one difference that I can identify is that
the âsuccessfulâ files had only one note at a time rather than chords being
played. I am not prepared to spend more time on this issue at the moment, as
I want to finish work on what will be my last jOrgan VPO for the time being
- an extension of the KOGARAH one.
As far as I can see, Anvil Studio could be useful in identifying the tracks
of standard MIDI files which one wants to use with jOrgan by means of a
sequencer, and also the stops being used in jOrgan MIDI files, but editing
of the notes being played in the jOrgan MIDI files still seems to be eluding
us.
John Reimer
--
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John Reimer

2017-06-05 23:25:09 UTC

Permalink

Post by g***@gmail.com
A MIDI file created by the recorder in jOrgan is intended for playback by
the MIDI player in jOrgan in that actual disposition. Even editing the
original disposition between record and playback could cause problems with
the accuracy of the replay.

Rick,

Thank you for your suggestions. Currently I am not trying to use jOrgan MIDI
files on dispositions other than the one on which they were created. In the
BROADWAY VPO which I installed in my local church and where I play for
services twice a month, I use the jOrgan recorder occasionally if no
organist is available for the service. Naturally I pre-record hymns for this
purpose. My playing, although adequate for this, shows its inadequacies in
recordings, and I would like to be able to edit the notes-on and notes-off.
Currently I am not aware of any way I can do this. I tried Chris P's
suggestion of using Aria Maestoso, but it is certainly not working for me.

John Reimer

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g***@gmail.com

2017-06-06 22:32:47 UTC

Permalink

Hi John

This MidiEditor is the easiest (open source) way I have found to do this.
It is a piano roll view.
http://midieditor.sourceforge.net/

Install and open the software.
Open a file
Go to the "View" drop-down list, select "Colours..." - "From Tracks"
Press the "Play" button and watch your file play, adjust zoom and scroll up
or down to see everything.
You will see how you can drag an event to start it sooner or later, change
the note, or align multiple notes.

After edits the saved file plays as intended in jOrgan.

(I have not found a way in this software to see or edit the jOrgan stop
changes.)

Regards
Rick

Post by John Reimer

with

Post by g***@gmail.com
the accuracy of the replay.

Rick,
Thank you for your suggestions. Currently I am not trying to use jOrgan MIDI
files on dispositions other than the one on which they were created. In the
BROADWAY VPO which I installed in my local church and where I play for
services twice a month, I use the jOrgan recorder occasionally if no
organist is available for the service. Naturally I pre-record hymns for this
purpose. My playing, although adequate for this, shows its inadequacies in
recordings, and I would like to be able to edit the notes-on and notes-off.
Currently I am not aware of any way I can do this. I tried Chris P's
suggestion of using Aria Maestoso, but it is certainly not working for me.
John Reimer
--
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John Reimer

2017-06-07 20:33:55 UTC

Permalink

Post by g***@gmail.com
This MidiEditor is the easiest (open source) way I have found to do this.
It is a piano roll view.

Hi Rick,

Many thanks. I have begun to investigate it. Editing does look easier than
with Anvil Studio, and I think it will suit what I am doing very much. I
think that Anvil Studio will still have its uses, especially in identifying
tracks in MIDI files downloaded from the internet.

John Reimer

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John Reimer

2017-06-07 22:15:33 UTC

Permalink

I think that Anvil Studio will still have its uses, especially in
identifying tracks in MIDI files downloaded from the internet.

g***@gmail.com

2017-06-08 00:41:46 UTC

Permalink

Hi John

Glad it is working for you.
Switching between display of tracks or channels seems to be very useful in
this little editor.

Regards
Rick

Post by John Reimer

I think that Anvil Studio will still have its uses, especially in
identifying tracks in MIDI files downloaded from the internet.

Actually I now see that Midi Editor also does this job very well.
John Reimer
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tp4665054p4665094.html
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John Beach

2017-06-06 00:44:37 UTC

Permalink

Rick, Iâm sorry you spent time stating what you did below. I am aware of all of what you said. The only reason I have been pursuing this subject at all is because I wanted to know, originally, if the metadata of a jOrgan-Recorder-produced MIDI file was always stored on a dedicated track or MIDI Channel. I found out that it is stored in a track and that assigning a MIDI Channel number to that channel deletes all the proprietary metadata. Essentially, the jOrgan-proprietary metadata is GUI-element related and there is no way that MIDI messages, as Channel Messages (e.g., Program Change) could effectuate the stop changes, since jOrgan stops
are non-MIDI switches which are referenced to a Preset in a Soundbank which are MIDI. You can take any standard midi file, edit the channel numbers so that the note-on/note-off messages from those tracks can play
the stops of divisions in jOrgan, record the file in jOrgan and save it with all the proprietary jOrgan metadata related to stop changes, couplers, tremulant, expression changes, etc. that you make during playback.
I think it is beneficial to understand the âMetaMidiâ concept since they are, obviously, closed connected, however the one may be distinct from the other and any cooperation is due to human input.

John B.

From: ***@gmail.com
Sent: Monday, June 5, 2017 7:19 PM
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Fw: Fw: Fw: jOrgan Recorder Disposition-Proprietary Data channel?

Hello John

A MIDI file created by the recorder in jOrgan is intended for playback by the MIDI player in jOrgan in that actual disposition. Even editing the original disposition between record and playback could cause problems with the accuracy of the replay.

Playing a MIDI file created by the recorder in a jOrgan disposition using some other MIDI sequencer will render all information other than recognized MIDI messages as useless. The text comments used by Sven for registration changes will not be recognized by any MIDI software. They will not even be recognized by a different jOrgan disposition.

Any use of this text information would need to be done by human interpenetration with a detailed understanding of the disposition in which it was created. I can't see how any code or MPL could assist with this.

Yes, the jOrgan recorder assigns each division to a track, each track showing CH1. This can be changed in a MIDI editor like Anvil Studio.

My suggestion for assigning registration changes to a MIDI file being played into a different disposition would be as follows:

Edit the MIDI file to have unique channel numbers for each division.
Edit the intended disposition to match these channels to divisions using the Customizer.
Edit the MIDI file to have Program Change messages at suitably timed places in the music.
Edit the intended disposition to match these Program Change messages to Pistons in the disposition
Edit the combination memory to have suitable registration changes stored in the Pistons
Play the edited MIDI file into jOrgan from an external MIDI sequencer
Record the performance using the MIDI recorder in the disposition.

You will now have a MIDI file ready for playback by the jOrgan MIDI player in this specific disposition.

Regards
Rick

On Mon, 5 Jun 2017 at 23:36 John Beach <***@fairpoint.net> wrote:

In outputting the playback of a jOrgan-disposition, recorder-produced .mid
file using MidiGlass for the playback via Loopbe virtual midi cable
inputting to the same disposition, while the note-on/note off messages are
transmitted to jOrgan, they are all transmitted on Channel 1 and, thus, they
are not played by the divisions having other Channel numbers. All
note-on/note-off messages to to the Swell Manual (channel 1). None of the
jOrgan-proprietary metadata, shown on Track 6 of MidiGlass, is, apparently,
transmitted back to jOrgan to inform it in the same manner in which the
Recorder function of jOrgan does. Would this be possible with some
kind of MPL in the Messages section of jOrgan to "Intercept" such metadata.

Given the capability of the jOrgan Recorder, while this is a totally
unnecessary thing to do, it is the specific need to understand how metadata
is handled by MIDI and why, when MIDI can list all the metadata in an
external MIDI sequencer program, it has the limitation of not being able to
transmit that same data back to the program from which it received it to
effectuate what MPL effectuates or what jOrgan-proprietary "comments"
effectuate with respect to the innerworkings of the console elements of a
jOrgan disposition. Perhaps, Lynn can inform us how or why this disparity
exists. I am surmising that it is the difference between .txt messages,
identifying elements and the power of Controller-type messages which
activate, deactivate, engage and disengage elements within the time frame of
the note-on/note-off messages which are the single, most important aspect of
a .mid file.
The MIDI Sequencer program which I use most often allows one to create
(following a specified format) proprietary Patch/Program Change/Preset Lists
and to create one's own .syx (SYSEX) files which can be both loaded and
edited in the Sequencer program. While I have used the former to create
lists of the Presets of Organ Soundbanks based on Soundfonts, I have never
actually created a .syx file which specified the proprietary data of the
disposition of a program such as jOrgan. I am content to be thankful for
all the work Sven did to make this possible, since it seems like a rather
awesome task.
Is the future of MIDI, especially proprietary metadata, in XML, and is this
the solution to the ready translation or equation of different, although not
incompatible, specifications with respect to switch-effectuated, sound
schemes based on unspecified, individual soundbanks or soundfonts, such as
jOrgan is capable of creating and dealing with?

I also discovered that if I, manually, add the midi channel number (6) to
the jOrgan-proprietary metadata track in the MIDI Sequencer program, it
apparently erases all the data because, after doing so, only the track
identification shows and no metadata (the entire element list of a
disposition) is shown. Not sure why this occurs, but it is so.

John B.

-----Original Message-----
From: John Reimer
Sent: Monday, June 5, 2017 7:36 AM
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Fw: Fw: jOrgan Recorder Disposition-Proprietary
Data channel?

Post by John Beach
the same stops in the same disposition are assigned the same
identifying number in different recordings. So, apparently, they are
permanent, element identifiers in a disposition. Since these are
readable,
as text, by such programs as Anvil Studio and Midi Glass, they are helpful
to know what stops of a disposition were used to produce the file and when
those stops were activated or cancelled.

Yes, that is my conclusion also.

However, I have to report no success with Anvil Studio even with the
accessory installed. Nothing has changed. I did make another jOrgan MIDI
file which it read, but it would still not read the notes-on and notes-off
information of the others. The one difference that I can identify is that
the âsuccessfulâ files had only one note at a time rather than chords being
played. I am not prepared to spend more time on this issue at the moment, as
I want to finish work on what will be my last jOrgan VPO for the time being
- an extension of the KOGARAH one.

As far as I can see, Anvil Studio could be useful in identifying the tracks
of standard MIDI files which one wants to use with jOrgan by means of a
sequencer, and also the stops being used in jOrgan MIDI files, but editing
of the notes being played in the jOrgan MIDI files still seems to be eluding
us.

John Reimer

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g***@gmail.com

2017-06-06 01:56:51 UTC

Permalink

To John Reimer, and others interested

I have found success in editing note on/off messages in a MIDI file
recorded in jOrgan using this piano roll editor.
http://midieditor.sourceforge.net/

It doesn't show any stops text though.

Regards
Rick

Post by John Beach
Rick, Iâm sorry you spent time stating what you did below. I am aware of
all of what you said. The only reason I have been pursuing this subject at
all is because I wanted to know, originally, if the metadata of a
jOrgan-Recorder-produced MIDI file was always stored on a dedicated track
or MIDI Channel. I found out that it is stored in a track and that
assigning a MIDI Channel number to that channel deletes all the proprietary
metadata. Essentially, the jOrgan-proprietary metadata is GUI-element
related and there is no way that MIDI messages, as Channel Messages (e.g.,
Program Change) could effectuate the stop changes, since jOrgan stops
are non-MIDI switches which are referenced to a Preset in a Soundbank
which are MIDI. You can take any standard midi file, edit the channel
numbers so that the note-on/note-off messages from those tracks can play
the stops of divisions in jOrgan, record the file in jOrgan and save it
with all the proprietary jOrgan metadata related to stop changes, couplers,
tremulant, expression changes, etc. that you make during playback.
I think it is beneficial to understand the âMetaMidiâ concept since they
are, obviously, closed connected, however the one may be distinct from the
other and any cooperation is due to human input.
John B.
*Sent:* Monday, June 5, 2017 7:19 PM
*Subject:* Re: [jOrgan-user] Fw: Fw: Fw: jOrgan Recorder
Disposition-Proprietary Data channel?
Hello John
A MIDI file created by the recorder in jOrgan is intended for playback by
the MIDI player in jOrgan in that actual disposition. Even editing the
original disposition between record and playback could cause problems with
the accuracy of the replay.
Playing a MIDI file created by the recorder in a jOrgan disposition using
some other MIDI sequencer will render all information other than recognized
MIDI messages as useless. The text comments used by Sven for registration
changes will not be recognized by any MIDI software. They will not even be
recognized by a different jOrgan disposition.
Any use of this text information would need to be done by human
interpenetration with a detailed understanding of the disposition in which
it was created. I can't see how any code or MPL could assist with this.
Yes, the jOrgan recorder assigns each division to a track, each track
showing CH1. This can be changed in a MIDI editor like Anvil Studio.
My suggestion for assigning registration changes to a MIDI file being
Edit the MIDI file to have unique channel numbers for each division.
Edit the intended disposition to match these channels to divisions using the Customizer.
Edit the MIDI file to have Program Change messages at suitably timed places in the music.
Edit the intended disposition to match these Program Change messages to
Pistons in the disposition
Edit the combination memory to have suitable registration changes stored in the Pistons
Play the edited MIDI file into jOrgan from an external MIDI sequencer
Record the performance using the MIDI recorder in the disposition.
You will now have a MIDI file ready for playback by the jOrgan MIDI player
in this specific disposition.
Regards
Rick

Post by John Beach
the same stops in the same disposition are assigned the same
identifying number in different recordings. So, apparently, they are
permanent, element identifiers in a disposition. Since these are
readable,
as text, by such programs as Anvil Studio and Midi Glass, they are

helpful

Post by John Beach
to know what stops of a disposition were used to produce the file and

when

Post by John Beach
those stops were activated or cancelled.

Yes, that is my conclusion also.
However, I have to report no success with Anvil Studio even with the
accessory installed. Nothing has changed. I did make another jOrgan MIDI
file which it read, but it would still not read the notes-on and notes-off
information of the others. The one difference that I can identify is that
the âsuccessfulâ files had only one note at a time rather than chords being
played. I am not prepared to spend more time on this issue at the moment, as
I want to finish work on what will be my last jOrgan VPO for the time being
- an extension of the KOGARAH one.
As far as I can see, Anvil Studio could be useful in identifying the tracks
of standard MIDI files which one wants to use with jOrgan by means of a
sequencer, and also the stops being used in jOrgan MIDI files, but editing
of the notes being played in the jOrgan MIDI files still seems to be eluding
us.
John Reimer
--
http://jorgan.999862.n4.nabble.com/Fw-Fw-jOrgan-Recorder-Disposition-Proprietary-Data-channel-tp4665052p4665053.html
Sent from the jOrgan - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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John Beach

2017-06-06 07:26:58 UTC

Permalink

Rick, I havenât used Anvil Studio at all, only MidiGlass, which is the Midi Sequencer which shows ALL of the element contents of a jOrgan disposition on Track 6 of the .mid file. It shows the note-on/note-off messages for each of the other Tracks (equating to the divisions) of the jOrgan disposition, as tracks. Of course, all tracks, except the metadata track are assigned Midi Channel 1. Years ago, I purchased a program called Record Producer Deluxe which is a good Midi Sequencer Program with an Audio Recorder/Editor window, an application within an application, Wave and MP3 being recordable while MIDI is playing back a .mid file, one program doing everything. It is a very useful program, but unlike MidiGlass, it does not show ANY of the jOrgan-proprietary metadata. While it is only the actual stop changes, couplers and expression/volume changes which occur during a recorded performance which are essential to be known, and it seems superfluous for MidiGlass to show the entire, element contents of a disposition, that it is done in the one, and not done in the other Midi Sequencer program, indicates that metadata extraction is possible in a program the name of which is MIDI Glass and not MetaMidi Glass. While Sysex may be considered âmetadata,â it comports with MIDI to the extent that it can be modified in a text editor and used in my other Midi Sequencer program. Indeed, the CMOS Reuters Pipe Organ (www.graeber.com) gives its stop list and instructions on how to use an old version of Cakewalk to show the stops used in the Sysex-proprietary .mid files produced by the organ. Unlike the metadata of jOrgan dispositions, the fact that the Reuters organ uses MIDI Channel 5 to transmit both Stops and changes of them, and Swell Shade degrees of openness or fully closed by static, note-on messages on MIDI key numbers equating to the Preset Numbers of the Soundbank of Organ Stops used by the organ, this conceptual difference is important, since designated MIDI note numbers are used in MIDI to effectuate Program changes, Reverb levels, etc.
While MIDI is somewhat familiar to most of us, because of Soundfont Bank Manager in the old AWE-32 and AWE-64 soundcards of 20 and more years ago, used in conjunction with MIDI Sequencer programs to play .mid files, given the distinct differences in effectuating sound production, to understand that it is the demands of the Graphical User Interface which require the non-MIDI is not something that is readily perceptible. How the
Checkbox, used as a Switch to designate the assignment of a Program Change/Preset, differs from a Drawknob or stop tab, with respect to the pre-programmed instructions which are effectuated when, mechanically, drawing or retiring the Drawknob or stop tab has ramifications which are greater than mere connection. Yet, mere connection is all that we are actually concerned about. So, we tend to see it more simplistically than it really is, because it WAS simpler 20 years ago, despite the limitation of one voice per MIDI channel, this limitation could be overcome by âlayeringâ of presets. So, many organ soundfonts included Presets with Combinations and multiple combinations of instruments in Presets asstops because they could be effectuated by MIDI.
I guess I might ask whether functionality has actually increased or whether the âglitzâ of Graphics is what has actually become much more complex. Ironically, given the skins of jOrgan, we still do not have a tutorial or program which allows for ready skin production and I still do not know how to edit photos to sizes which are compatible with jOrgan or how to edit the skin XML file to make it functional. All these things are related to
âmetadata,â which is not necessary to MIDI function but give âlook and feelâ to virtual organs. I think we have exchanged one kind of layering in soundfonts, compatible with MIDI, for another kind of layering in Metadata which is not. Maybe I am reading more into the idea of âinterfaceâ than I have a right to, because I continue to see the .mid file from the perspective of General Midi, providing universal playability. The idea that I could take a .mid file produced by anybody and immediately have it play back exactly as it was originally played, does not apply to jOrgan. The incongruity is that a piece of music can be played on any organ, BUT you need a specific disposition with an exact stop complement having produced that exact rendition of that piece of music on a specific program with its proprietary recorder, as the ONLY way that playback of that file is possible, is a limitation on the concept of âinterface.â That said, if we perceive each jOrgan disposition as an individual organ, we have a replication of the pipe organ concept with respect to uniqueness. Also, once a soundfont and a disposition are created, the facility of use is much greater than the âold way,â loading a soundfont of layered organ presets into RAM by Soundfont Bank Manager and using a Midi Sequencer program of tracks with assigned channel numbers to allow play of those Presets by the manuals and pedalboard, preprogrammed to transmit note-on/note-off messages on those assigned channels.
I am wondering whether, one day, XML will make it possible to readily equate stop name for stop name, do the necessary translation/equation correlates, automatically, and allow for the playback of a .mid file using them, even though the Preset numbers of the one bank differ from the Preset numbers of the same-named stops of the other bank. This is the only limitation which is imposed by the specification of a digit. 0 does not equal 1.

What program can set two soundfonts side-by-side, by reading analysis, equate an exact Preset name to an exact Preset name, reconcile two numbers which identify them as Presets in different banks and conclude that they are the same for purposes of the playback of Midi Track note-on/note-off messages? The answer is âSoundfont Bank Manager.â Standardization proves its purpose. Why is it objectionable? The standard midi file requires a sequencer program (or Media Player) to play it. Stop selection is Program Change assignment.
The shortest distance between two points is NOT metadata.

I apologize for the length of this post, I donât know if or how I could have put it more succinctly.

John B.

From: John Beach
Sent: Monday, June 5, 2017 8:44 PM
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Fw: [jOrgan-user] Fw: Fw: Fw: jOrgan Recorder Disposition-Proprietary Data channel?

Rick, Iâm sorry you spent time stating what you did below. I am aware of all of what you said. The only reason I have been pursuing this subject at all is because I wanted to know, originally, if the metadata of a jOrgan-Recorder-produced MIDI file was always stored on a dedicated track or MIDI Channel. I found out that it is stored in a track and that assigning a MIDI Channel number to that channel deletes all the proprietary metadata. Essentially, the jOrgan-proprietary metadata is GUI-element related and there is no way that MIDI messages, as Channel Messages (e.g., Program Change) could effectuate the stop changes, since jOrgan stops
are non-MIDI switches which are referenced to a Preset in a Soundbank which are MIDI. You can take any standard midi file, edit the channel numbers so that the note-on/note-off messages from those tracks can play
the stops of divisions in jOrgan, record the file in jOrgan and save it with all the proprietary jOrgan metadata related to stop changes, couplers, tremulant, expression changes, etc. that you make during playback.
I think it is beneficial to understand the âMetaMidiâ concept since they are, obviously, closed connected, however the one may be distinct from the other and any cooperation is due to human input.

John B.

From: ***@gmail.com
Sent: Monday, June 5, 2017 7:19 PM
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Fw: Fw: Fw: jOrgan Recorder Disposition-Proprietary Data channel?

Hello John

A MIDI file created by the recorder in jOrgan is intended for playback by the MIDI player in jOrgan in that actual disposition. Even editing the original disposition between record and playback could cause problems with the accuracy of the replay.

Playing a MIDI file created by the recorder in a jOrgan disposition using some other MIDI sequencer will render all information other than recognized MIDI messages as useless. The text comments used by Sven for registration changes will not be recognized by any MIDI software. They will not even be recognized by a different jOrgan disposition.

Any use of this text information would need to be done by human interpenetration with a detailed understanding of the disposition in which it was created. I can't see how any code or MPL could assist with this.

Yes, the jOrgan recorder assigns each division to a track, each track showing CH1. This can be changed in a MIDI editor like Anvil Studio.

My suggestion for assigning registration changes to a MIDI file being played into a different disposition would be as follows:

Edit the MIDI file to have unique channel numbers for each division.
Edit the intended disposition to match these channels to divisions using the Customizer.
Edit the MIDI file to have Program Change messages at suitably timed places in the music.
Edit the intended disposition to match these Program Change messages to Pistons in the disposition
Edit the combination memory to have suitable registration changes stored in the Pistons
Play the edited MIDI file into jOrgan from an external MIDI sequencer
Record the performance using the MIDI recorder in the disposition.

You will now have a MIDI file ready for playback by the jOrgan MIDI player in this specific disposition.

Regards
Rick

On Mon, 5 Jun 2017 at 23:36 John Beach <***@fairpoint.net> wrote:

In outputting the playback of a jOrgan-disposition, recorder-produced .mid
file using MidiGlass for the playback via Loopbe virtual midi cable
inputting to the same disposition, while the note-on/note off messages are
transmitted to jOrgan, they are all transmitted on Channel 1 and, thus, they
are not played by the divisions having other Channel numbers. All
note-on/note-off messages to to the Swell Manual (channel 1). None of the
jOrgan-proprietary metadata, shown on Track 6 of MidiGlass, is, apparently,
transmitted back to jOrgan to inform it in the same manner in which the
Recorder function of jOrgan does. Would this be possible with some
kind of MPL in the Messages section of jOrgan to "Intercept" such metadata.

Given the capability of the jOrgan Recorder, while this is a totally
unnecessary thing to do, it is the specific need to understand how metadata
is handled by MIDI and why, when MIDI can list all the metadata in an
external MIDI sequencer program, it has the limitation of not being able to
transmit that same data back to the program from which it received it to
effectuate what MPL effectuates or what jOrgan-proprietary "comments"
effectuate with respect to the innerworkings of the console elements of a
jOrgan disposition. Perhaps, Lynn can inform us how or why this disparity
exists. I am surmising that it is the difference between .txt messages,
identifying elements and the power of Controller-type messages which
activate, deactivate, engage and disengage elements within the time frame of
the note-on/note-off messages which are the single, most important aspect of
a .mid file.
The MIDI Sequencer program which I use most often allows one to create
(following a specified format) proprietary Patch/Program Change/Preset Lists
and to create one's own .syx (SYSEX) files which can be both loaded and
edited in the Sequencer program. While I have used the former to create
lists of the Presets of Organ Soundbanks based on Soundfonts, I have never
actually created a .syx file which specified the proprietary data of the
disposition of a program such as jOrgan. I am content to be thankful for
all the work Sven did to make this possible, since it seems like a rather
awesome task.
Is the future of MIDI, especially proprietary metadata, in XML, and is this
the solution to the ready translation or equation of different, although not
incompatible, specifications with respect to switch-effectuated, sound
schemes based on unspecified, individual soundbanks or soundfonts, such as
jOrgan is capable of creating and dealing with?

I also discovered that if I, manually, add the midi channel number (6) to
the jOrgan-proprietary metadata track in the MIDI Sequencer program, it
apparently erases all the data because, after doing so, only the track
identification shows and no metadata (the entire element list of a
disposition) is shown. Not sure why this occurs, but it is so.

John B.

-----Original Message-----
From: John Reimer
Sent: Monday, June 5, 2017 7:36 AM
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Fw: Fw: jOrgan Recorder Disposition-Proprietary
Data channel?

Post by John Beach
the same stops in the same disposition are assigned the same
identifying number in different recordings. So, apparently, they are
permanent, element identifiers in a disposition. Since these are
readable,
as text, by such programs as Anvil Studio and Midi Glass, they are helpful
to know what stops of a disposition were used to produce the file and when
those stops were activated or cancelled.

Yes, that is my conclusion also.

However, I have to report no success with Anvil Studio even with the
accessory installed. Nothing has changed. I did make another jOrgan MIDI
file which it read, but it would still not read the notes-on and notes-off
information of the others. The one difference that I can identify is that
the âsuccessfulâ files had only one note at a time rather than chords being
played. I am not prepared to spend more time on this issue at the moment, as
I want to finish work on what will be my last jOrgan VPO for the time being
- an extension of the KOGARAH one.

As far as I can see, Anvil Studio could be useful in identifying the tracks
of standard MIDI files which one wants to use with jOrgan by means of a
sequencer, and also the stops being used in jOrgan MIDI files, but editing
of the notes being played in the jOrgan MIDI files still seems to be eluding
us.

John Reimer

--
View this message in context:
http://jorgan.999862.n4.nabble.com/Fw-Fw-jOrgan-Recorder-Disposition-Proprietary-Data-channel-tp4665052p4665053.html
Sent from the jOrgan - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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