[jOrgan-user] Jorgan Bug?

[Aaron Laws]

Import a soundfont with at least two banks, and presets on the same channel
in both banks (for instance, on instrument on channel 0 on bank 1 and
another on channel 0 bank 2). Select bank 0 and all ranks during import.

For argument, let's say channel 0 bank 0 is "flute" and channel 0 bank 1 is
"montre". After this process, the flute sounds correct, but montre is
actually the flute.

I'm working with jeux http://www.realmac.info/jeux1.htm which has two full
banks of instrument definitions. I knew they were wrong for quite a while
now, but just tonight figured out how. I was only working with bank 0 and
all the instrument definitions for bank 1 were mapping to some instrument
on bank 0. I think what I need to do next time is only choose the ranks
from bank 0 during the import process. Better would be if jorgan wouldn't
list ranks from bank 1 when I selected bank 0. Better still, list all the
ranks and import them from any bank.

Let me know if I've missed something, or if you have seen this behaviour,
too.

In Christ,
Aaron Laws

[John Reimer]

Post by Aaron Laws
Let me know if I've missed something, or if you have seen this behaviour,
too.

Aaron,

I haven't used soundfonts with more than one bank, so I am out of my comfort
zone. However, the jOrgan rank messages allow you to specify the bank number
as well as the preset number for the rank. I believe it is done at the end
of the message line ahead of the line where you insert the preset number.

Apologies if this is not relevant, or if you are aware of this already.

John Reimer




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[BrianS]

Hi Aaron,

The way to get around this (and I have played with this extensively), is not
difficult at all.
1. Open the said soundfont in Polypohne (or other soundfont editor).
2. Inspect the soundfont, and import all the ranks in bank 0 only, and
select bank 0 in the dialogue box.
3. Next, import again, but this time select only the ranks in bank 1,
remembering to change the bank number to 1 in the dialogue box.
4. Repeat as many times as necessary.
5. If you import the way you have done, you will need to go to the
'messages' part in jOrgan to manualy edit all ranks that ae in different
ranks, that was not selected as the bank number in the import dialogue box.

I hope it helps.

Brian.



-----
Regards,

BrianS
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[Graham Goode]

The bottom line seems to be, yes - this is a bug in the import
function of jOrgan. It should manage bank values properly.

[Aaron Laws]

Post by Graham Goode
The bottom line seems to be, yes - this is a bug in the import
function of jOrgan. It should manage bank values properly.

I have made the code change locally.
https://sourceforge.net/p/jorgan/code/HEAD/tree/trunk/jorgan-soundfont/src/main/java/jorgan/soundfont/gui/imports/SoundFontImport.java#l123

In line 123, I added

if (preset.getBank() != bank) continue;

I'm not sure what other errors this might introduce, but it helps my case
quite a bite.

In Christ,
Aaron Laws

[BrianS]

Hi Aaron,

So does this change allow you to import a multi-bank soundfont?

For example, a soundfont with banks 0, 2,3, and 7, will your change import
this correctly?

Regards,

Brian.



-----
Regards,

BrianS
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[Aaron Laws]

Post by BrianS
Hi Aaron,
So does this change allow you to import a multi-bank soundfont?
For example, a soundfont with banks 0, 2,3, and 7, will your change import
this correctly?
Regards,
Brian.

Excellent question. No. I would like that to work, but my change is much
gentler than that would require.

During soundfont import, it asks which bank you're wanting to import. My
change makes it so that the rank (soundfort preset) list presented later
only contains presets from the desired bank.

In your case, with banks 0,2,3,7, you'll still need for soundfont imports,
but in each case, select the bank you're wanting to import, then, when you
get to the rank list, you can select all in each case, and only the ranks
from the desired bank will be imported each time.

As I said earlier, the change I made was only made to my code repository on
my computer.

In Christ,
Aaron Laws

[John Beach]

Make sure that the Rank MPL Messages, are correct. I use 8 separate soundfonts. All the banks in Fluidsynth Sound are numbered 1-8. The MPL messages for each rank must be entered manually in jOrgan. It is the second entry (Engaged set 176, set 0, set X) X being the number of the bank entered under the Fluidsynth Sound Properties for the soundfont being used. The next entry below that in MPL Messages is the Preset Number of the Stop in the Soundfont. It is the Rank/bank number which is important, in this particular case, not the sameness of the Preset number.

John B.


From: Aaron Laws
Sent: Monday, June 5, 2017 6:20 PM
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: [jOrgan-user] Jorgan Bug?

Import a soundfont with at least two banks, and presets on the same channel in both banks (for instance, on instrument on channel 0 on bank 1 and another on channel 0 bank 2). Select bank 0 and all ranks during import.

For argument, let's say channel 0 bank 0 is "flute" and channel 0 bank 1 is "montre". After this process, the flute sounds correct, but montre is actually the flute.

I'm working with jeux http://www.realmac.info/jeux1.htm which has two full banks of instrument definitions. I knew they were wrong for quite a while now, but just tonight figured out how. I was only working with bank 0 and all the instrument definitions for bank 1 were mapping to some instrument on bank 0. I think what I need to do next time is only choose the ranks from bank 0 during the import process. Better would be if jorgan wouldn't list ranks from bank 1 when I selected bank 0. Better still, list all the ranks and import them from any bank.

Let me know if I've missed something, or if you have seen this behaviour, too.


In Christ,
Aaron Laws


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[John Reimer]

Post by John Beach
Make sure that the Rank MPL Messages, are correct. I use 8 separate
soundfonts. All the banks in Fluidsynth Sound are numbered 1-8. The MPL
messages for each rank must be entered manually in jOrgan. It is the
second entry (Engaged set 176, set 0, set X) X being the number of the
bank entered under the Fluidsynth Sound Properties for the soundfont being
used. The next entry below that in MPL Messages is the Preset Number of
the Stop in the Soundfont. It is the Rank/bank number which is important,
in this particular case, not the sameness of the Preset number.

Thank you, JohnB, for adding what I was not absolutely sure about. However,
there is still a trap. The banks in Fluidsynth may be numbered 1-8, but that
means MIDI numbers 0-7. They have to be right.

John Reimer




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[Aaron Laws]

Post by John Beach
Make sure that the Rank MPL Messages, are correct. I use 8 separate
soundfonts. All the banks in Fluidsynth Sound are numbered 1-8. The MPL
messages for each rank must be entered manually in jOrgan. It is the
second entry (Engaged set 176, set 0, set X) X being the number of the bank
entered under the Fluidsynth Sound Properties for the soundfont being used.

You bring up an excellent point. I didn't notice that one of the properties
of the fluidsynth element is "bank". Apparently each fluidsynth object can
only play from one bank at a time? I don't dare to wonder why that might
be, but it does seem to be the case.

In that case, since fluidsynth elements have nothing to do with the
soundfont import process, this does seem to be something I need to take
care of separately.

I think I stand by my earlier suggestion: when importing a soundfont, after
having selected bank 0, the user shouldn't be presented with ranks from
bank 1.

Thank you for your kind responses.

In Christ,
Aaron Laws

[Lynn Walls]

That should NOT be the case. If the soundfont is loaded properly with respect to multiple
bank designations in the soundfont file, jOrgan/fluidsynth should be able to play presets
from any number of banks concurrently.

The bank select (MIDI MPL) command is CHANNEL SPECIFIC. This means that setting the
particular bank for any one Rank (MIDI channel) shold NOT affect the bank currently
selected for any other Rank (MIDI channel).

CLW
-------------------------------------------------------------------

... I didn't notice that one of the properties of the
fluidsynth element is "bank". Apparently each fluidsynth object can only play from one
bank at a time? I don't dare to wonder why that might be, but it does seem to be the case.

[Aaron Laws]

Post by Lynn Walls
That should NOT be the case. If the soundfont is loaded properly with
respect to multiple bank designations in the soundfont file,
jOrgan/fluidsynth should be able to play presets from any number of banks
concurrently.

I realized that I was mistaken in my earlier conclusions based on some
later comments. This still doesn't make sense to me. The fluidsynth object
has a bank number as seen in the jorgan design mode. What does that number
mean?

Post by Lynn Walls
The bank select (MIDI MPL) command is CHANNEL SPECIFIC. This means that
setting the particular bank for any one Rank (MIDI channel) shold NOT
affect the bank currently selected for any other Rank (MIDI channel).

Very helpful; thank you.

In Christ,
Aaron Laws

[Thomas Beck]

I think Aaron should take over development of jOrgan.

Post by Aaron Laws

Post by Lynn Walls
That should NOT be the case. If the soundfont is loaded properly with
respect to multiple bank designations in the soundfont file,
jOrgan/fluidsynth should be able to play presets from any number of banks
concurrently.

I realized that I was mistaken in my earlier conclusions based on some
later comments. This still doesn't make sense to me. The fluidsynth object
has a bank number as seen in the jorgan design mode. What does that number
mean?

Post by Lynn Walls
The bank select (MIDI MPL) command is CHANNEL SPECIFIC. This means that
setting the particular bank for any one Rank (MIDI channel) shold NOT
affect the bank currently selected for any other Rank (MIDI channel).

Very helpful; thank you.
In Christ,
Aaron Laws
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[John Beach]

John, actually, the MPL numbers are 1-8. I save bank 0 in Soundfont Bank
Manager for my default GM soundfont. So all my jOrgan Fluidsynth banks are
loaded beginning with bank 1. You are correct, however, for people using
0-base. This is also true for the onboard Realtek audio using Fluidsynth.
I have dispositions which use 8 soundfonts the output of which is split
between Creative Labs and Realtek (Speakers) output to two separate
amplification systems, thereby, maintaining separation of tonal families to
some extent and, presumably, preventing harmonic distortion or
intermodulation distortion. I output Principals, Mixtures and strings on
the Realtek and Flutes and Reeds on the Creative Labs. Works quite well.

John B.

-----Original Message-----
From: John Reimer
Sent: Monday, June 5, 2017 9:56 PM
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Fw: Jorgan Bug?

Post by John Beach
Make sure that the Rank MPL Messages, are correct. I use 8 separate
soundfonts. All the banks in Fluidsynth Sound are numbered 1-8. The MPL
messages for each rank must be entered manually in jOrgan. It is the
second entry (Engaged set 176, set 0, set X) X being the number of the
bank entered under the Fluidsynth Sound Properties for the soundfont being
used. The next entry below that in MPL Messages is the Preset Number of
the Stop in the Soundfont. It is the Rank/bank number which is important,
in this particular case, not the sameness of the Preset number.

Thank you, JohnB, for adding what I was not absolutely sure about. However,
there is still a trap. The banks in Fluidsynth may be numbered 1-8, but that
means MIDI numbers 0-7. They have to be right.

John Reimer




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[John Beach]

While this seems to be an internal jOrgan problem, I think it occurs when a
soundfont has more than the default, single bank, 000 designation,
preceding the preset number of the soundfont. (Paul Stratman might want to
comment on this since some of his single soundfonts have used this
multi-bank numbering capability). If the soundfont begins with presets
000-000 to 000-015, for example, then at 000-016 a change of bank number to
001 and Preset to either 000 or 016, 001-000 or 001-016, there is a problem
in recognition, on import, by jOrgan. Whether this is related to the .dll
(ctloader) which prevents jOrgan from loading a Soundfont in Creative Sound
in jOrgan (a problem which can be bypassed by simply loading the soundfont
using Soundfont Bank Manager), I don't know, but again, it can be manually
corrected or effectuated.
I am not sure what the specific advantage, given the fact that the total
number of presets in a soundfont remains 127(8), of having separate bank
numbers within the soundfont is. What must be remembered is the base=0 or
base=1 concept. If, for example, the soundfont bank numbering is 000-000 to
000-015, then a change is made to 001-000, and the soundfont is assigned to
bank number 3 in Fluidsynth (jOrgan), the bank and preset of 001-000 will
actually be found in bank 004 of the Soundfont Bank Manager. (This can be a
problem is there is a soundfont assigned in Fluidsynth to Bank 4. There
will be a conflict and the voice expected may not be the voice heard. If
the assigned bank number in the soundfont is higher, that number, added to
the Fluidsynth Bank number in jOrgan Properties, determines the bank number
in RAM where that preset is expected to be. The rule is, Fluidsynth Bank
Number PLUS (+) whatever the number of the changed (not default 000) bank
is. This is complicated and might not have been taken into consideration
with respect to calculations on importing soundfonts. I have tested this
out using Soundfont Bank Manager with a single soundfont and bank and preset
numbers, exactly as this: 000-000,001-000,002-000, and 003-000. While all
of the presets of the default 000 bank will display in the assigned bank
number of the Soundfont Bank Manager (just as Fluidsynth Bank Numbers), each
of the presets with the successively-numbered banks will display, alone, in
successively numbered banks of the Soundfont Bank Manager.

John B.

-----Original Message-----
From: Graham Goode
Sent: Tuesday, June 6, 2017 3:58 AM
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Jorgan Bug?

The bottom line seems to be, yes - this is a bug in the import
function of jOrgan. It should manage bank values properly.

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[John Beach]

This is simple to check. I use the procedure, Click the stop "On," go into
"Construct Mode," click on the Stop,
in the Stop Property, click on the Rank which it references, on the Messages
tab, make the change, if necessary, to the bank number. Go back to
"Console" mode and, using the jOrgan Keyboard, play a note in the division
where the stop is located, if it sounds correct, it is.

John B.

-----Original Message-----
From: John Reimer
Sent: Monday, June 5, 2017 9:56 PM
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Fw: Jorgan Bug?

Post by John Beach
Make sure that the Rank MPL Messages, are correct. I use 8 separate
soundfonts. All the banks in Fluidsynth Sound are numbered 1-8. The MPL
messages for each rank must be entered manually in jOrgan. It is the
second entry (Engaged set 176, set 0, set X) X being the number of the
bank entered under the Fluidsynth Sound Properties for the soundfont being
used. The next entry below that in MPL Messages is the Preset Number of
the Stop in the Soundfont. It is the Rank/bank number which is important,
in this particular case, not the sameness of the Preset number.

Thank you, JohnB, for adding what I was not absolutely sure about. However,
there is still a trap. The banks in Fluidsynth may be numbered 1-8, but that
means MIDI numbers 0-7. They have to be right.

John Reimer




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[John Beach]

Aaron, When changes are made to the source code, when do they show up in a downloadable version of jOrgan, given the fact that no one or Sven is no longer managing the programming aspect?
Thanks.
John Beach
From: Aaron Laws
Sent: Tuesday, June 6, 2017 9:06 AM
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Jorgan Bug?

On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 3:58 AM, Graham Goode <***@gmail.com> wrote:

The bottom line seems to be, yes - this is a bug in the import
function of jOrgan. It should manage bank values properly.



I have made the code change locally. https://sourceforge.net/p/jorgan/code/HEAD/tree/trunk/jorgan-soundfont/src/main/java/jorgan/soundfont/gui/imports/SoundFontImport.java#l123

In line 123, I added

if (preset.getBank() != bank) continue;

I'm not sure what other errors this might introduce, but it helps my case quite a bite.

In Christ,
Aaron Laws


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Aaron Laws]

Post by John Beach
Aaron, When changes are made to the source code, when do they show up in
a downloadable version of jOrgan, given the fact that no one or Sven is no
longer managing the programming aspect?
Thanks.
John Beach

Thank you for asking. I don't have permission to update the official jorgan
code base. Well, I haven't checked, but I haven't been told anything ;-) I
have only changed my local copy of the code.

The answer to your question: "when do they show up...?" is roughly never.
Of course, jorgan is free software, and I am happy (nay, required) to
share. My source code copy of jorgan is online; let me know if you would
like to know where you can find it. I don't have a "compiled" version of
jorgan or an installer with my changes in it.

Anyway, let me know if this change sounds like something you would be
interested to have and we can see how hard it is to get it running on your
machine.

In Christ,
Aaron Laws

[Roy Radford]

Hi, Aaron,

Interesting to know that we still have members capable of
tinkering with jOrgan source code! I did a bit of 'C' about twenty years
ago but the prospect of learning Java and the workings of jOrgan would just
about blow my ageing brain! [image: *:)) laughing]

Have fun,

Roy.

Post by Aaron Laws

Post by John Beach
Aaron, When changes are made to the source code, when do they show up in
a downloadable version of jOrgan, given the fact that no one or Sven is no
longer managing the programming aspect?
Thanks.
John Beach

Thank you for asking. I don't have permission to update the official
jorgan code base. Well, I haven't checked, but I haven't been told anything
;-) I have only changed my local copy of the code.
The answer to your question: "when do they show up...?" is roughly never.
Of course, jorgan is free software, and I am happy (nay, required) to
share. My source code copy of jorgan is online; let me know if you would
like to know where you can find it. I don't have a "compiled" version of
jorgan or an installer with my changes in it.
Anyway, let me know if this change sounds like something you would be
interested to have and we can see how hard it is to get it running on your
machine.
In Christ,
Aaron Laws
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[John Beach]

While there is, apparently, a remedy for the rank/bank number problem in jOrgan, which Aaron has addressed, the problem with Creative Sound will, probably, never be resolved since it was identified as some aspect of the ctloader.dll file which is a Creative Technologies file. It prevents jOrgan from being able to load soundfonts in banks in RAM. This problem is circumvented simply by using Soundfont Bank Manager to load the soundfonts in the bank numbers. The same MPL messages for ranks apply to Creative Labs as apply to Fluidsynth. Creative Labs is no longer producing soundcards with soundfont capability.

John B.

From: Aaron Laws
Sent: Tuesday, June 6, 2017 1:57 PM
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Fw: Jorgan Bug?

On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 9:33 AM, John Beach <***@fairpoint.net> wrote:

Aaron, When changes are made to the source code, when do they show up in a downloadable version of jOrgan, given the fact that no one or Sven is no longer managing the programming aspect?
Thanks.
John Beach

Thank you for asking. I don't have permission to update the official jorgan code base. Well, I haven't checked, but I haven't been told anything ;-) I have only changed my local copy of the code.

The answer to your question: "when do they show up...?" is roughly never. Of course, jorgan is free software, and I am happy (nay, required) to share. My source code copy of jorgan is online; let me know if you would like to know where you can find it. I don't have a "compiled" version of jorgan or an installer with my changes in it.

Anyway, let me know if this change sounds like something you would be interested to have and we can see how hard it is to get it running on your machine.

In Christ,
Aaron Laws


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[John Beach]

"The bank select (MIDI MPL) command is CHANNEL SPECIFIC. This means that
setting the particular bank for any one Rank (MIDI channel) should NOT
affect the bank
currently selected for any other Rank (MIDI channel)."

I understand this to mean that Program Changes are Channel Messages (MIDI)
and that jOrgan metadata effectuates, with respect to the stops/couplers and
tremulant of a division, the workings of ranks via a Keyboard which is
assigned that Midi Channel in Customizer. Where (which bank number) a bank
is loaded in RAM, is what must agree in both the Rank MPL message and in
Fluidsynth Properties. While a bank number is a constant in a disposition,
a coupler connects a rank to a keyboard having a different channel number
than that of the division in which the rank may be located, i.e., a rank in
a bank
can be played on any (keyboard) channel by means of a coupler. So, a
coupler
would be perceived as a kind of router to a track, created by the coupler,
the
keyboard channel of which is a constant.
This is a capability of jOrgan which does not exist in simple MIDI sequencer
programs,
since they do not allow the assigning of more than one Program Change or
Preset,
at a time, on a MIDI Channel, in the track view.

MIDI Sequencer Programs with multiple tracks, (regardless of the
note-on/note-off messages of those tracks), having the same Channel number
will, by force of default, all have the same Program Change, despite the
fact that insertions of different Program Changes may be made in the Event
Lists of tracks (having the same channel number) of the .mid file, which do
NOT change the Channel. Events which may be edited in a Track are: note,
controller, patch change, key aftertouch, pitch bend, channel aftertouch and
sysex. In the Conductor Track, tempo, key signature and meter may be set
or changed. I do not understand the difference between a MIDI Event and a
Metadata "event" which has the capability of overcoming the forced default
limitation with respect to Program Changes, in particular, relative to a
MIDI Channel, since MIDI tracks have the limitation of one MIDI channel
assignment and one program change (at a time) per MIDI channel.

The fact is that MIDI recognizes the Bank and Preset Number, regardless of
what its name is. So, all the text is metadata and all the digits are MIDI.




-----Original Message-----
From: Lynn Walls
Sent: Tuesday, June 6, 2017 12:14 PM
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Fw: Jorgan Bug?

That should NOT be the case. If the soundfont is loaded properly with
respect to multiple bank designations in the soundfont file,
jOrgan/fluidsynth should be able to
play presets from any number of banks concurrently.

The bank select (MIDI MPL) command is CHANNEL SPECIFIC. This means that
setting the particular bank for any one Rank (MIDI channel) should NOT
affect the bank
currently selected for any other Rank (MIDI channel).

CLW
-------------------------------------------------------------------

... I didn't notice that one of the properties of the
fluidsynth element is "bank". Apparently each fluidsynth object can only
play from one bank at a time? I don't dare to wonder why that might be,
but it does seem to be the case.

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