[jOrgan-user] Three-Manual Allen Organ Conversion

Discussion:

Allenorganist

2011-06-18 20:13:51 UTC

Hello, everyone!

I have a thirty-year-old, three-manual Allen 632-D Computer organ that I am
planning to convert entirely over to MIDI (including pistons, toe pistons,
reversibles, expression shoes, etc.).
Loading Image...

As you can see in that picture, the organ is already equipped with some
MIDI (and jOrgan), but it only applies to the pedal division. Since I have a
relatively low budget, Hauptwerk is currently not an option. As a result, I
am in the planning stages of a jOrgan installation.

It would really be appreciated if you could please try to answer the couple
questions that I have.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0018EFGTM This is the sound card that I'm
considering installing in
http://www.amazon.com/Acer-AX3910-U4022-Desktop-Black/dp/B004GL08MY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1308352964&sr=8-1
this computer . Do you have any sound card recommendations for getting the
lowest possible latency with the best sound? That's my biggest concern...

My second question is, "How is it possible to have certain stops in jOrgan
(an en chamade stop, for example) sent through its own audio channel?" The
corollary is "How are entire divisions sent through different audio
channels?" There are enough amplifiers and speakers to handle 6 separate
100W (rms) channels.

Thanks.

Timothy

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John Beach

2011-06-19 10:27:02 UTC

Permalink

Timothy, that is a great soundcard and you should not have any latency
problems. Since the X-Fi series relies on USB for external MIDI-instrument
input or use with another MIDI/Gameport
connector-equipped soundcard, you will have to decide how you are going to
input MIDI to the PC. Others on the forum should be able to help you with
that. I have a Yamaha USB Midi cable ($40.00 US), but have had no luck
getting it to work. Regarding the changeover to MIDI for the manuals and
pistons, toe studs, etc., Artisan Instruments has good parts for doing this
if you have not already found a MIDI parts manufacturer that has what you
want and fits your price range. I did a two-manual and full pedalboard
Allen TC-3 six years ago at a cost of $485.00 US.
Good luck!
John Beach

-----Original Message-----
From: Allenorganist
Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2011 4:13 PM
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Three-Manual Allen Organ Conversion

Hello, everyone!

I have a thirty-year-old, three-manual Allen 632-D Computer organ that I am
planning to convert entirely over to MIDI (including pistons, toe pistons,
reversibles, expression shoes, etc.).
http://jorgan.999862.n4.nabble.com/file/n3608270/DSCI1976.jpg

As you can see in that picture, the organ is already equipped with some
MIDI (and jOrgan), but it only applies to the pedal division. Since I have a
relatively low budget, Hauptwerk is currently not an option. As a result, I
am in the planning stages of a jOrgan installation.

It would really be appreciated if you could please try to answer the couple
questions that I have.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0018EFGTM This is the sound card that I'm
considering installing in
http://www.amazon.com/Acer-AX3910-U4022-Desktop-Black/dp/B004GL08MY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1308352964&sr=8-1
this computer . Do you have any sound card recommendations for getting the
lowest possible latency with the best sound? That's my biggest concern...

My second question is, "How is it possible to have certain stops in jOrgan
(an en chamade stop, for example) sent through its own audio channel?" The
corollary is "How are entire divisions sent through different audio
channels?" There are enough amplifiers and speakers to handle 6 separate
100W (rms) channels.

Thanks.

Timothy

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DellAnderson

2011-06-19 19:03:55 UTC

Permalink

Reading the Artisan website, they strongly recommend the Cakewalk USB-MIDI
converter if their Artisan Midi converter system is used (NOTE: the
MIDII0128 from AVIShowtech is cheaper, but more work and non-commercial
non-resale use only):

"The Cakewalk USB-to-MIDI Interface is the ONLY interface cable used with
the Artisan Micro-MIDI System to download and upload programming. Other USB
MIDI interfaces on the market generally do not produce a clean enough data
signal for programming the Micro-MIDI Modules. Other interfaces may be used
to pass the standard MIDI signal, but this is the ONLY interface approved by
Artisan to use when programming or loading and saving registrations."

Post by John Beach
Since the X-Fi series relies on USB for external MIDI-instrument
input or use with another MIDI/Gameport
connector-equipped soundcard, you will have to decide how you are going to
input MIDI to the PC. Others on the forum should be able to help you with
that. I have a Yamaha USB Midi cable ($40.00 US), but have had no luck
getting it to work. Regarding the changeover to MIDI for the manuals and
pistons, toe studs, etc., Artisan Instruments has good parts for doing this
if you have not already found a MIDI parts manufacturer that has what you
want and fits your price range. I did a two-manual and full pedalboard
Allen TC-3 six years ago at a cost of $485.00 US.
Good luck!
John Beach

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orgel jeux

2011-06-19 19:37:01 UTC

Permalink

I use M-Audio Midisport 2x2 and Roland UM-880. Also most external audio
devices have an extra Midi in- out available.

My experience is, that most interfaces can handle all the traffic perfectly.
As you will be more future-proof, it is best to invest in a multi-port
unit, say 4 ports. So that you can eventually add an extra kb or so, or
perhaps a separate Midi swell pedal.

It depends also of course, on the way you midify your instrument. There are
pretty good Midi encoders on the market specially designed for organ, like
Midiboutique . as they have plenty of intputs for swell pedals, stops, kb,s
and pedals, you wont need extra things, and in that case a simple 1-port
Midi to USB interface will do, like they are incorporated on many external
audio devices.

Greetings

Geert

Post by DellAnderson
Reading the Artisan website, they strongly recommend the Cakewalk USB-MIDI
converter if their Artisan Midi converter system is used (NOTE: the
MIDII0128 from AVIShowtech is cheaper, but more work and non-commercial
"The Cakewalk USB-to-MIDI Interface is the ONLY interface cable used with
the Artisan Micro-MIDI System to download and upload programming. Other USB
MIDI interfaces on the market generally do not produce a clean enough data
signal for programming the Micro-MIDI Modules. Other interfaces may be used
to pass the standard MIDI signal, but this is the ONLY interface approved by
Artisan to use when programming or loading and saving registrations."

Post by John Beach
Since the X-Fi series relies on USB for external MIDI-instrument
input or use with another MIDI/Gameport
connector-equipped soundcard, you will have to decide how you are going

Post by John Beach
input MIDI to the PC. Others on the forum should be able to help you

with

Post by John Beach
that. I have a Yamaha USB Midi cable ($40.00 US), but have had no luck
getting it to work. Regarding the changeover to MIDI for the manuals and
pistons, toe studs, etc., Artisan Instruments has good parts for doing this
if you have not already found a MIDI parts manufacturer that has what you
want and fits your price range. I did a two-manual and full pedalboard
Allen TC-3 six years ago at a cost of $485.00 US.
Good luck!
John Beach

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Allenorganist

2011-06-19 20:50:16 UTC

Permalink

Thanks, Geert. I will check out Midiboutique...

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Allenorganist

2011-06-19 20:51:30 UTC

Permalink

Thanks for sharing your experience, Geert. I will check out Midiboutique...

Regards,

Timothy

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Rick (greenfox)

2011-06-20 00:20:03 UTC

Permalink

uCapps MIDIBox is to Artisan uMIDI what jOrgan is to Hauptwerk.

Post by DellAnderson
(NOTE: the
MIDII0128 from AVIShowtech is cheaper, but more work and non-commercial

Allenorganist

2011-06-19 19:42:32 UTC

Permalink

Thank you very much for replying, John, I really wasn't aware of Artisan's
great products! The Artisan system looks really nice and professional... If
I can afford it, that will probably be my first choice for a MIDI solution.

Timothy

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Graham Goode

2011-06-19 11:49:52 UTC

Permalink

Hi Timothy,

It looks like the soundcard does 7.1 (8 mono channels) or 4 stereo
pairs. To get different Ranks or Divisions routed through to the
different stereo pairs you will need a fluidsynth element for each
one. Will you be using Windows or Linux?

GrahamG

Post by Allenorganist
Hello, everyone!
I have a thirty-year-old, three-manual Allen 632-D Computer organ that I am
planning to convert entirely over to MIDI (including pistons, toe pistons,
reversibles, expression shoes, etc.).
http://jorgan.999862.n4.nabble.com/file/n3608270/DSCI1976.jpg
As you can see in that picture, the organ is already equipped with some
MIDI (and jOrgan), but it only applies to the pedal division. Since I have a
relatively low budget, Hauptwerk is currently not an option. As a result, I
am in the planning stages of a jOrgan installation.
It would really be appreciated if you could please try to answer the couple
questions that I have.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0018EFGTM This is the sound card that I'm
considering installing in
http://www.amazon.com/Acer-AX3910-U4022-Desktop-Black/dp/B004GL08MY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1308352964&sr=8-1
this computer . Do you have any sound card recommendations for getting the
lowest possible latency with the best sound? That's my biggest concern...
My second question is, "How is it possible to have certain stops in jOrgan
(an en chamade stop, for example) sent through its own audio channel?" The
corollary is "How are entire divisions sent through different audio
channels?" There are enough amplifiers and speakers to handle 6 separate
100W (rms) channels.
Thanks.
Timothy
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Allenorganist

2011-06-19 19:55:12 UTC

Permalink

Hi, Graham.

Thanks for your reply. I hope to be running jOrgan in Windows 7. By the
way, I've read on the internet that Fluidsynth does not support ASIO
drivers, and therefore has higher latency times. Is that true?

A couple other questions (sorry, I'm a total beginner)... Is an "instance of
Fluidsynth" a "Fluidsynth sound" object in jOrgan? When you have multiple
instances of Fluidsynth, are those instances assigned to their unique audio
channels from within jOrgan, or is it somehow done through the soundcard
software?

Thanks.

Timothy

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orgel jeux

2011-06-19 20:08:24 UTC

Permalink

There comes my point about multiple audio chahel devices, Timothy!

So far we detected, that only a very few audio devices can have their WDM (
direct sound) channels assigned to different instances of FS.
It is the Focusrite Saffire as you can read on this forum.

This means, that a disposition like the Sagrada ( some 10 or so FS
instances), will be playable only in stereo on most systems.

As only smaller organs can use only 1 FS instance, it is absolutely
necessary to use a disposition with multiple instances. Happily this has no
influence on the overall latency, but the latency is not as short as would
be possible if FS could use the ASIO driver.

This latency is also dependant on the audio device, and usually is much
better using the better audio devices. There you can go much lower with
amount of buffers and buffer size.

Greetings,

Geert

Post by Allenorganist
Hi, Graham.
Thanks for your reply. I hope to be running jOrgan in Windows 7. By the
way, I've read on the internet that Fluidsynth does not support ASIO
drivers, and therefore has higher latency times. Is that true?
A couple other questions (sorry, I'm a total beginner)... Is an "instance of
Fluidsynth" a "Fluidsynth sound" object in jOrgan? When you have multiple
instances of Fluidsynth, are those instances assigned to their unique audio
channels from within jOrgan, or is it somehow done through the soundcard
software?
Thanks.
Timothy
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Allenorganist

2011-06-21 05:11:05 UTC

Permalink

After reading about the Focusrite Saffire series' capabilities (on this
forum and on the manufacturer's website), I decided to try the "Focusrite
Saffire Pro 24," which I was able to purchase for a great price (only
slightly over half of its $400 list price). Computer compatibility factors
also guided this decision.

Hopefully, it will soon be possible to learn how to configure jOrgan with
Linuxsampler or Grand Orgue (as Graham mentioned), so that the device's
low-latency ASIO capabilities can be used...

Timothy

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Rick (greenfox)

2011-06-19 12:07:08 UTC

Permalink

Of itself jOrgan produces no sound. There are a number of different
options for linking jOrgan to sound output of which Fluidsynth is
probably most common and most integrated. Are you intending to use
Fluidsynth?

Is there one or more dispositions your are interested in, or which to
base your questions on?

If you use a soundcard with multiple available channels (as seen in your
audio control centre) (are you using Windows, which version?) then each
"instance" of Fluidsynth will be able to be configured to specific
channels. Specific ranks in a disposition can be assigned to a specific
instance of Fluidsynth.

I for hardware to provide MIDI signals from your Allen organ, the low
cost option is to use uCapps MIDIIO128. Available from AVIShowtech.com
in kit form. $180.00 will get you 256 switch contacts which for me is
3x 61 note manuals, 25 note pedal board, 32 pistons, 4x toys and 1
(capable of 3 or more) Swell. This system is more straight forward and
more MIDI powerful than the Artisan system at much lower cost (as long
as you are able to solder circuit boards)

Regards
Rick

Post by Allenorganist
Hello, everyone!
I have a thirty-year-old, three-manual Allen 632-D Computer organ that I am
planning to convert entirely over to MIDI (including pistons, toe pistons,
reversibles, expression shoes, etc.).
http://jorgan.999862.n4.nabble.com/file/n3608270/DSCI1976.jpg
As you can see in that picture, the organ is already equipped with some
MIDI (and jOrgan), but it only applies to the pedal division. Since I have a
relatively low budget, Hauptwerk is currently not an option. As a result, I
am in the planning stages of a jOrgan installation.
It would really be appreciated if you could please try to answer the couple
questions that I have.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0018EFGTM This is the sound card that I'm
considering installing in
http://www.amazon.com/Acer-AX3910-U4022-Desktop-Black/dp/B004GL08MY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1308352964&sr=8-1
this computer . Do you have any sound card recommendations for getting the
lowest possible latency with the best sound? That's my biggest concern...
My second question is, "How is it possible to have certain stops in jOrgan
(an en chamade stop, for example) sent through its own audio channel?" The
corollary is "How are entire divisions sent through different audio
channels?" There are enough amplifiers and speakers to handle 6 separate
100W (rms) channels.
Thanks.
Timothy
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orgel jeux

2011-06-19 18:12:25 UTC

Permalink

I would not TOO QUICKLY advertise, that these soundcards - which are not
intended for the musician - do the more then one stereo output trick at the
snap of a finger..

That they have indeed more output channels available, is mostly used for
surround sound decoding. They are actually NOT dedicated multiple output
audio devices like the mAudio, Focusrite, EMU, etc etc.

Indeed I can seee AND use these output channels in HW, which is
ASIO-related. But as we have to use directsound with the available
FluidSynth audio engine, we cannot use them to full potential.

Under directsound MY Creative card does NOT show more output channels!!

My advice is, to use a better - eternal USB or Firewire - audio device,
also with an eye into the future.

The PC specs will do, even when you eventually want to try the free version
of HW.

Decide also about reverb possibilities.

1. Use the Creative EAX. ( not always possible under WIN7).

2. Use external hardware ( works always, less upgradable).

3. Convolution reverb ( the best; difficult implementation for jOrgan as it
cannot be used as a VSTi plug-in).

For Midifying it is probably best in your situation to use some units from
the U.S. so I do not have any comments on that.

Greetings, and congratulations with that beast of a console...!!

Geert

Post by Rick (greenfox)
Of itself jOrgan produces no sound. There are a number of different
options for linking jOrgan to sound output of which Fluidsynth is
probably most common and most integrated. Are you intending to use
Fluidsynth?
Is there one or more dispositions your are interested in, or which to
base your questions on?
If you use a soundcard with multiple available channels (as seen in your
audio control centre) (are you using Windows, which version?) then each
"instance" of Fluidsynth will be able to be configured to specific
channels. Specific ranks in a disposition can be assigned to a specific
instance of Fluidsynth.
I for hardware to provide MIDI signals from your Allen organ, the low
cost option is to use uCapps MIDIIO128. Available from AVIShowtech.com
in kit form. $180.00 will get you 256 switch contacts which for me is
3x 61 note manuals, 25 note pedal board, 32 pistons, 4x toys and 1
(capable of 3 or more) Swell. This system is more straight forward and
more MIDI powerful than the Artisan system at much lower cost (as long
as you are able to solder circuit boards)
Regards
Rick

Post by Allenorganist
Hello, everyone!
I have a thirty-year-old, three-manual Allen 632-D Computer organ that

I am

Post by Allenorganist
planning to convert entirely over to MIDI (including pistons, toe

pistons,

Post by Allenorganist
reversibles, expression shoes, etc.).
http://jorgan.999862.n4.nabble.com/file/n3608270/DSCI1976.jpg
As you can see in that picture, the organ is already equipped with some
MIDI (and jOrgan), but it only applies to the pedal division. Since I

have a

Post by Allenorganist
relatively low budget, Hauptwerk is currently not an option. As a result,

Post by Allenorganist
am in the planning stages of a jOrgan installation.
It would really be appreciated if you could please try to answer the

couple

Post by Allenorganist
questions that I have.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0018EFGTM This is the sound card that I'm
considering installing in

http://www.amazon.com/Acer-AX3910-U4022-Desktop-Black/dp/B004GL08MY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1308352964&sr=8-1

Post by Allenorganist
this computer . Do you have any sound card recommendations for getting

the

Post by Allenorganist
lowest possible latency with the best sound? That's my biggest concern...
My second question is, "How is it possible to have certain stops in

jOrgan

Post by Allenorganist
(an en chamade stop, for example) sent through its own audio channel?"

The

Post by Allenorganist
corollary is "How are entire divisions sent through different audio
channels?" There are enough amplifiers and speakers to handle 6 separate
100W (rms) channels.
Thanks.
Timothy
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Allenorganist

2011-06-19 21:00:59 UTC

Permalink

I really appreciate your advice, Geert. Is this product the type of audio
device that you're recommending?
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Audiophile192.html
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Audiophile192.html

Regarding reverb, I think I will use 2 (possibly 3) external
http://www.alesis.com/nanoverb Alesis Nanoverb units. I really like the way
that they have improved the sound of my Allen.

"that beast of a console" Glad you like it.

Timothy

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Allenorganist

2011-06-19 20:39:36 UTC

Permalink

Thanks for the response, Rick!

As I mentioned to Graham, there is some information on the internet that
Fluidsynth has higher latency times because it doesn't support ASIO drivers.
That has caused me to have reservations about using Fluidsynth... Geert
confirmed that the latency is slightly greater without ASIO. Are there any
viable alternatives?

Regarding dispositions, I'm planning to make my own unique 5-division
disposition, but it would be adapted from Mr. Stratman's American Classic
(Aeolian-Skinner) 5.0 disposition. The composition of the soundfonts will be
quite eclectic (derived from many web sources).

Windows 7 is likely going to be the version that I will use.

Thanks for suggestion about MIDIIO128. However, in the information, it
seems to say that that kit has only 128 inputs... I'm not certain that I'm
looking at the right kit...the most expensive price I see is $136.00 for the
" http://avishowtech.com/buy.html MB-6582 Baseboard Parts Kit ." (ID #70)
Am I looking at the wrong one?

Regards,

Timothy

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orgel jeux

2011-06-19 20:56:55 UTC

Permalink

Timothy, just for a reference,

here is the Midiboutique website.

http://www.midiboutique.com/midiboutique/

There you can see, what modules there are, and what they make possible in
console terms.

Wish you lots of success; in my opinion even real-world organmakers did not
really succeed in putting a lot of pipes from different sources together to
form a convincing original instrument.

I think you would be musically speaking better of first trying some good
quality jOrgan dispositions made by people with classically trained ears,
like Bernd for example, before indulging in getting this from all sources
composite thing together.

Ever read some articles about organ pipe voicing, and how it was done by
people like Cavaiile Coll??

there is more to an organ disposition than just putting as many different
stops together as you can find.

But of course, I speak from a European ( Dutch) organexperience
background..........

greetings,

Geert

Post by Allenorganist
Thanks for the response, Rick!
As I mentioned to Graham, there is some information on the internet that
Fluidsynth has higher latency times because it doesn't support ASIO drivers.
That has caused me to have reservations about using Fluidsynth... Geert
confirmed that the latency is slightly greater without ASIO. Are there any
viable alternatives?
Regarding dispositions, I'm planning to make my own unique 5-division
disposition, but it would be adapted from Mr. Stratman's American Classic
(Aeolian-Skinner) 5.0 disposition. The composition of the soundfonts will be
quite eclectic (derived from many web sources).
Windows 7 is likely going to be the version that I will use.
Thanks for suggestion about MIDIIO128. However, in the information, it
seems to say that that kit has only 128 inputs... I'm not certain that I'm
looking at the right kit...the most expensive price I see is $136.00 for the
" http://avishowtech.com/buy.html MB-6582 Baseboard Parts Kit ." (ID #70)
Am I looking at the wrong one?
Regards,
Timothy
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Allenorganist

2011-06-19 21:14:01 UTC

Permalink

Thanks for the link.

"I think you would be musically speaking better of first trying some good
quality jOrgan dispositions made by people with classically trained ears,
like Bernd for example, before indulging in getting this from all sources
composite thing together." Oh yes, Geert, that's what I'm doing. I'm going
through all of the more professional jOrgan dispositions and selecting the
most realistic stops.

Yes, I should read some articles on voicing because that's going to be
integral to making this project sound its best when it's completed.

Greetings,

Tim

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Rick (greenfox)

2011-06-20 00:00:02 UTC

Permalink

Multiple instances of Fluidsynth can only output their audio in
"dsound". "dsound" stands for "Direct Sound" which is part of the
"DirectX" technology for gaming. This reached the peak of its
development with Windows XP. Subsequent versions of Windows, Vista and
now Windows 7, have incorporated an emulation of "dsound" so the
function still works, however it introduces latency or delay. Raising
the processing capacity of the processor does not seem to help this
delay, in fact it can make it worse.

There is work being done to use "Port Audio" as the output of Fulidsynth
which can drive directly into WAS-API (this is the new native audio
stream for Vista and Windows 7). At this stage, this will only work
with one instance of Fluidsynth meaning all audio output of jOrgan (if
using Fluidsynth) can only go through one stereo pair.
If you have Audio hardware with support for ASIO then there is a version
of this "Port Audio" that will output to ASIO (still only a single audio
pair). If you use ASIO4ALL and then go through any audio card, ASIO4ALL
simply converts to WAS-API (still only a single audio pair).

The uCapps MIDIO128 is a 128 input system, however multiple systems can
be "daisy-chained" (Merged) to double or triple (or more) the number of
contacts processed through a single MIDI connection to your PC. I have
two systems "daisy-chained" and am intending to expand the system
further. There is no delay created by "Merging" two or more systems.
The only bottle neck could be a poor quality MIDI to USB adaptor.
Each 128 input system consists of a CORE8 KIT (US$30) and 4x DIN KIT
($15ea).

I have written a document as an overview of the process a couple of
years ago now. The programming is now even easier as is handled in a
dedicated piece of Java software, so no scripting is required.
http://www.tosa-qld.org/VTPO/docs/Midification_of_an_Organ.pdf

Regards
Rick

Allenorganist

2011-06-20 01:36:03 UTC

Permalink

Graham Goode

2011-06-20 05:36:54 UTC

Permalink

Hi Guys,

Yes there is a viable free open source alternative to fluidsynth that
can load and play the soundfonts already being distributed -
LinuxSampler. LinuxSampler has builds for Linux, Windows, & OS-X, uses
ASIO, has a jOrgan extension, and can be configured for multiple audio
channels.

It is somewhat more tricky for a novice to setup & configure, but it
is about time that we started writing tutorials on what to do, how to
do, etc.

The other free open source option is using jOrgan to control a
multi-instance GrandOrgue organ.

GrahamG

Hi,
Since I'm really not an experienced solderer (especially when it comes to
ICs) and do not have high-quality soldering equipment, it seems like it
might be better to invest in a professionally assembled MIDI encoder...
Geert has suggested Midiboutique, and I think that this "all-in-one" MIDI
encoder would really suit my needs well.
http://www.midiboutique.com/midiboutique/products/productform.php?prod_id=10310
http://www.midiboutique.com/midiboutique/products/productform.php?prod_id=10310
I will read your document about programming tomorrow.
Thanks very much for your help.
Regards,
Timothy
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orgel jeux

2011-06-20 07:39:20 UTC

Permalink

Timothy, you selected indeed the unit that ove rhere in the Netherlands is
used most of the times for a 2 or 3 manual console.

It is not that i want to advertise for Midiboutique, but i can say from own
and other people's experience, that Jordan Petkov does a great job in
advising people before and after delivery of any of his products and is also
great in thinking along with their plans and giving advice.
In the beginning I was a bit afraid about the country Bulgaria, but I always
have had positive results like many others.

Of course in the US there are also good Midi-encoder-providers....

Indeed M-Audio is a very good choice. you can also look at the HW site for
soundcard advice, but of course you did so already I guess....

This reply from Rick very well explains what I tried to tell you about the
audio driver story in windows XP and 7.

There is one addition I would like to make: While testing the PortAudio
developments, it became clear, that there is at least one make of audio
device that has drivers that could assign all available audio output
channels to the WDM/KS FS instances.
THis was the Focusrite Saffire, as used by Erik, you should read the threads
about this.

Greetings,

Geert

Post by Graham Goode
Hi Guys,
Yes there is a viable free open source alternative to fluidsynth that
can load and play the soundfonts already being distributed -
LinuxSampler. LinuxSampler has builds for Linux, Windows, & OS-X, uses
ASIO, has a jOrgan extension, and can be configured for multiple audio
channels.
It is somewhat more tricky for a novice to setup & configure, but it
is about time that we started writing tutorials on what to do, how to
do, etc.
The other free open source option is using jOrgan to control a
multi-instance GrandOrgue organ.
GrahamG

Post by Allenorganist
Hi,
Since I'm really not an experienced solderer (especially when it comes

Post by Allenorganist
ICs) and do not have high-quality soldering equipment, it seems like it
might be better to invest in a professionally assembled MIDI encoder...
Geert has suggested Midiboutique, and I think that this "all-in-one" MIDI
encoder would really suit my needs well.

http://www.midiboutique.com/midiboutique/products/productform.php?prod_id=10310
http://www.midiboutique.com/midiboutique/products/productform.php?prod_id=10310

Post by Allenorganist
I will read your document about programming tomorrow.
Thanks very much for your help.
Regards,
Timothy
--

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------------------------------------------------------------------------------

orgel jeux

2011-06-20 13:02:37 UTC

Permalink

Timothy,

I Midified my - American build !! - Hammond B3000 some years ago with the
aid of a Midiboutique unit.

I can tell you, that the original key-contacts, which only had to switch 24
volts DC, work perfectly now switching directly into the matrix.

They consist of in fact a double contact, with tiny goldplated contacts onto
a common busbar.

I split the busbar in sections of 8 keys, so as to comply to the 8x8 diode
matrix switching, put diodes in series with the contact fingers, and wired
it all up towards a piece of flatcable that goes directly towards the 16 pin
kb connector.

If your instrument happens to have individual contacts, you do not need to
cut the busbars, and only to connect 8 keys next to each other.

In order to maintain the original pedal contacts layout, and also because
these contacts were not directly user-friendly avaiable for changing wiring,
diodes etc, I made an interface consisting of electronic switches that were
directly switched by the Hammond 24 volts pedal contacts, and closed a
switch inside the integrated circuits that was connected in the standard way
on the diode matrix for the pedalboard.

Dont know if this info is of any value to you, but i think you could do with
some info from others who Midified an existing console.

Apropos, the original Hammond swellpedal makes use of a LDR ( light
dependant resistor), and that circuit was in my case too much high-impedance
in order to regulate the 0 to 5 volts input voltage for the midi-encoder, so
there I put a small interface corcuit in, with a few transistors, merely to
convert the high impedance LDR-output to a 5 volts swing at its output.

But of course, if your console has potmeters in the swellpedals, you can -
if necessary - exchange them from probably logarithmic and perhaps also too
high impedance ( 100 kOhms or so) with a linear potmeter of some 10 kOhms of
the same physical dimensions, available at the electronics shop. The output
can be connected directly to the Midi encoder.

For midifying your stops, if you do not have enough capacity in the encoder,
it is quite easy to obtain a used simple keyboard with Midi out, and replace
the key contacts with wiring from the stops. For this option you should
acquire a keyboard* without* velocity sensing, as these have double contacts
under the keys which complicate the use as simple on-off switches.

But perhaps it is easier to have a standard Midi encoder for this, as the
costs are not that different. If you choose a encoder with a spare 8x8 mux
input connector, it becomes very simple and convenient.

Greetings,

Geert

Greetings,

Geert

Post by orgel jeux
Timothy, you selected indeed the unit that ove rhere in the Netherlands is
used most of the times for a 2 or 3 manual console.
It is not that i want to advertise for Midiboutique, but i can say from own
and other people's experience, that Jordan Petkov does a great job in
advising people before and after delivery of any of his products and is also
great in thinking along with their plans and giving advice.
In the beginning I was a bit afraid about the country Bulgaria, but I
always have had positive results like many others.
Of course in the US there are also good Midi-encoder-providers....
Indeed M-Audio is a very good choice. you can also look at the HW site for
soundcard advice, but of course you did so already I guess....
This reply from Rick very well explains what I tried to tell you about the
audio driver story in windows XP and 7.
There is one addition I would like to make: While testing the PortAudio
developments, it became clear, that there is at least one make of audio
device that has drivers that could assign all available audio output
channels to the WDM/KS FS instances.
THis was the Focusrite Saffire, as used by Erik, you should read the
threads about this.
Greetings,
Geert

Post by Allenorganist
Hi,
Since I'm really not an experienced solderer (especially when it comes

MIDI

Post by Allenorganist
encoder would really suit my needs well.

http://www.midiboutique.com/midiboutique/products/productform.php?prod_id=10310
http://www.midiboutique.com/midiboutique/products/productform.php?prod_id=10310

Post by Allenorganist
I will read your document about programming tomorrow.
Thanks very much for your help.
Regards,
Timothy
--

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Post by Allenorganist
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Allenorganist

2011-06-21 07:41:52 UTC

Permalink

Geert,

Thanks for your advice. My Allen has individual key contacts for the
manuals and two sets of independent reed switches for the pedal. (The second
set was installed a couple years ago to midify only the pedal.)

Yes, my organ uses LDRs as well. I had an idea yesterday about the
expression... Since I'm going to be using the organ's original amps, I was
thinking to try routing the new Swell audio signal through the actual
expression circuit, so that the organ's realistic effect of attenuating
higher frequencies (as the pedal is closed) is preserved. Is it correct that
jOrgan does not attenuate the higher frequencies when a MIDI swell pedal is
closed?

I'm actually not quite sure that I'll be midifying the stop tabs on the
organ console... The jOrgan disposition that I plan to use would be much
larger than the number of tabs on the organ (50), and the individual stop
names would differ from the names etched on the tabs.

Greetings,

Timothy

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Rick (greenfox)

2011-06-21 08:40:28 UTC

Permalink

Hello Timothy

In thinking about the aspects of your console to Midify, please keep in
mind that to be able to record your playing using a MIDI recorder either
built into jOrgan (or other Virtual Organs) or a generic stand-alone
MIDI recorder or sequencer, you would want all aspects of the console to
provide a MIDI signal.

You will have limited MIDI recording usefulness if you don't provide
MIDI signals for the swell. MIDI recording can be useful to allow
yourself to sit back and hear yourself (or a talented visitor) playing
your organ. You can work on rank balance, reverb settings,
registrations etc without needing 3 or 4 hands and possibly sitting in a
better position than at the organ console. With the jOrgan recorder,
you could share your disposition and MIDI files created using it. These
file are much smaller than audio files.

Keys, Pedals, Pistons & Swell are the basic MIDI functions required. It
is up to you if you want to add stops to the MIDI output. These will
have limited function if they are not SAM's (or magnetically actuated).
The naming and number are a problem as you mention (unless you decide to
create a jOrgan disposition to specifically suit your console)
It can be useful to have selected stops available to hand register (then
cancel) over your piston combinations.

Regards
Rick

Post by Allenorganist
Geert,
Thanks for your advice. My Allen has individual key contacts for the
manuals and two sets of independent reed switches for the pedal. (The second
set was installed a couple years ago to midify only the pedal.)
Yes, my organ uses LDRs as well. I had an idea yesterday about the
expression... Since I'm going to be using the organ's original amps, I was
thinking to try routing the new Swell audio signal through the actual
expression circuit, so that the organ's realistic effect of attenuating
higher frequencies (as the pedal is closed) is preserved. Is it correct that
jOrgan does not attenuate the higher frequencies when a MIDI swell pedal is
closed?
I'm actually not quite sure that I'll be midifying the stop tabs on the
organ console... The jOrgan disposition that I plan to use would be much
larger than the number of tabs on the organ (50), and the individual stop
names would differ from the names etched on the tabs.
Greetings,
Timothy

orgel jeux

2011-06-21 13:25:50 UTC

Permalink

Agreed with Rick.

But, it can also be rewarding, to play back the recorded Midi kb and pedal
signals, and with the score in hand, add the combination-switching later on,
as well as the swell pedal movements, and at the same time recording the
audio output to your HD.

These 50 or so switches; well, when you would be able to add some 10 or so,
you could have most classical organs on stop switches. But of course not the
gigantic ones, or the big theatre organs.

Many people rely on having magnetic strips above the stopswitches that can
be changed when you want to play another organ.

Bit whatever your decision, having lots of combination preset swtiches will
be very convenient, as you do not need to press a glass-plate ( touch
screen) all the time.

About your analog swell ideas: this sis certainly NOT going to work ( I
speak here form decades of building electronic organs....) as at the same
time when you diminish the swell volume, the added reverb will also
diminish, which is not the case in the real world.
Some cheap el organs of the past had this. it is of course f=different,
when you add the reverb for this division AFTER the swell pedal output.

Concerning the variable low-pass filter for the swell, you should actually
need info from Rick or Bernd, or other dispo developers.

Greetings,

Geert

Post by Rick (greenfox)
Hello Timothy
In thinking about the aspects of your console to Midify, please keep in
mind that to be able to record your playing using a MIDI recorder either
built into jOrgan (or other Virtual Organs) or a generic stand-alone
MIDI recorder or sequencer, you would want all aspects of the console to
provide a MIDI signal.
You will have limited MIDI recording usefulness if you don't provide
MIDI signals for the swell. MIDI recording can be useful to allow
yourself to sit back and hear yourself (or a talented visitor) playing
your organ. You can work on rank balance, reverb settings,
registrations etc without needing 3 or 4 hands and possibly sitting in a
better position than at the organ console. With the jOrgan recorder,
you could share your disposition and MIDI files created using it. These
file are much smaller than audio files.
Keys, Pedals, Pistons & Swell are the basic MIDI functions required. It
is up to you if you want to add stops to the MIDI output. These will
have limited function if they are not SAM's (or magnetically actuated).
The naming and number are a problem as you mention (unless you decide to
create a jOrgan disposition to specifically suit your console)
It can be useful to have selected stops available to hand register (then
cancel) over your piston combinations.
Regards
Rick

Post by Allenorganist
Geert,
Thanks for your advice. My Allen has individual key contacts for the
manuals and two sets of independent reed switches for the pedal. (The

second

Post by Allenorganist
set was installed a couple years ago to midify only the pedal.)
Yes, my organ uses LDRs as well. I had an idea yesterday about the
expression... Since I'm going to be using the organ's original amps, I

was

Post by Allenorganist
thinking to try routing the new Swell audio signal through the actual
expression circuit, so that the organ's realistic effect of attenuating
higher frequencies (as the pedal is closed) is preserved. Is it correct

that

Post by Allenorganist
jOrgan does not attenuate the higher frequencies when a MIDI swell pedal

Post by Allenorganist
closed?
I'm actually not quite sure that I'll be midifying the stop tabs on the
organ console... The jOrgan disposition that I plan to use would be much
larger than the number of tabs on the organ (50), and the individual stop
names would differ from the names etched on the tabs.
Greetings,
Timothy

Allenorganist

2011-06-21 15:21:05 UTC

Permalink

Hi,

I wasn't aware that jOrgan was capable of doing variable low-pass
filters... Knowing that, I shall abandon my idea about using the organ's
expression circuit, although the external reverb units would have come after
the swell expression unit. But, as you say, it will be very nice to have the
full functionality of the MIDI recorder.

Greetings,

Timothy

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Allenorganist

2011-06-21 15:40:37 UTC

Permalink

Hi, Rick.

You're right about the necessity of having the swell expression included in
the MIDI encoding.

Gert said that I should ask either you or Bernd about how to configure
variable low-pass filters for the various expressions. Not knowing that
those types of things were possible in jOrgan, I came up with the plan for
the use of the organ's analog circuit, which both attenuates the sound and
gradually places a low-pass filter on the Swell stops.

Regarding the midifying of the stop tabs, I think that will probably be a
later addition (with SAMs), when I have more funds available. With my
current setup, it is necessary to change stops on the pedal separately from
the organ's generals (with toe pistons). So, having "real" generals again
(with a complete jOrgan installation) will be a big improvement in the area
of registrational ease.

Thank you for your advice.

Regards,

Timothy

P.S. For anyone who might be interested in hearing what my Allen 632-D
sounds like (with jOrgan serving as the pedal division), here is a link to
my YouTube channel. http://www.youtube.com/user/GrandeBombarde16
http://www.youtube.com/user/GrandeBombarde16

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orgel jeux

2011-06-21 19:49:30 UTC

Permalink

Timothy,

Don't bother about the 8x8 matrix wiring; this is absolutely going to work
in your situation.
And as you have no busbar system, it is easily wired too.

I was only referring to using very long unscreened wiring in the case of the
pedalboard. But it is best, to first wire the reeds swti==itches in the
matrix configuration also, as in 95% of the cases this will work fine ( as
long as you dont sit like Roy next to his freezer with the beers......)

In the mean time I looked up some pictures of this Allen 632D console; what
a wealth of switches; I see a double row of stopswitches. And lots of
pistons etc.

But I am afraid it wont go to my upper floor........ I assume the speaker
system is multichannel?? Very impressive!

Greetings,

Geert

Post by Allenorganist
Hi, Rick.
You're right about the necessity of having the swell expression included in
the MIDI encoding.
Gert said that I should ask either you or Bernd about how to configure
variable low-pass filters for the various expressions. Not knowing that
those types of things were possible in jOrgan, I came up with the plan for
the use of the organ's analog circuit, which both attenuates the sound and
gradually places a low-pass filter on the Swell stops.
Regarding the midifying of the stop tabs, I think that will probably be a
later addition (with SAMs), when I have more funds available. With my
current setup, it is necessary to change stops on the pedal separately from
the organ's generals (with toe pistons). So, having "real" generals again
(with a complete jOrgan installation) will be a big improvement in the area
of registrational ease.
Thank you for your advice.
Regards,
Timothy
P.S. For anyone who might be interested in hearing what my Allen 632-D
sounds like (with jOrgan serving as the pedal division), here is a link to
my YouTube channel. http://www.youtube.com/user/GrandeBombarde16
http://www.youtube.com/user/GrandeBombarde16
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Pete Theisen

2011-06-21 20:12:30 UTC

Permalink

Post by orgel jeux
But I am afraid it wont go to my upper floor........ I assume the
speaker system is multichannel?? Very impressive!

--
Regards,

Pete
http://pete-theisen.com/
http://elect-pete-theisen.com/

orgel jeux

2011-06-21 20:23:22 UTC

Permalink

Pete,

When he staid "stand back" it gave me the shivers reading it, becasue I
thought he would throw the piano out of the window..........

But you have no idea, how small some of these European houses are...........

Happily I had my former Hammond B3000 cut into 2 pieces long before, in
order to take it on occasional tours, so I managed to get it up here.......

These old Hammonds have big and thick steel plating in the bottom where the
pedals hook in...All in all, they weigh over 200 pounds.

But the Allen will certainly weigh over 500 pounds I believe.

My great fear is, that some time in future, I will be forced to move to a -
how do you call that in English - home where they take care of the
elder......
And that I cannot take my console with me.

So I have a "shadow console" consisting merely of two simple keyboards
and a 25 note ( former Hammond) midified pedalboard with separate Midified
swellpedal. Just in case.

We all want to die on the bench like Vierne....or not??

greeetings,

Geert

Post by Pete Theisen

Post by orgel jeux
But I am afraid it wont go to my upper floor........ I assume the
speaker system is multichannel?? Very impressive!

Hi Geert,
After college, but before medical school I held a job as a long-distance
mover for several years. One day I was sent on a "small" job with a
helper, a slightly built man who did not look especially strong. There
wasn't supposed to be much there to move.
There was a grand piano included in the shipment, however, and it was on
a third floor with a circular tower stairway. Long story short, the man
who didn't look strong turned out to be stronger than he looked. He said
to me "Stand back, boss" and made it look very easy.
True enough we were taking it down. But someone else had taken it up!
Before you assume that your coveted console won't fit into the space you
have - or can't get there, get a mover's opinion. Maybe it will fit.
--
Regards,
Pete
http://pete-theisen.com/
http://elect-pete-theisen.com/
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Pete Theisen

2011-06-21 21:03:11 UTC

Permalink

Post by orgel jeux
Pete,
When he staid "stand back" it gave me the shivers reading it, becasue
I thought he would throw the piano out of the window..........
But you have no idea, how small some of these European houses are...........
Happily I had my former Hammond B3000 cut into 2 pieces long before, in
order to take it on occasional tours, so I managed to get it up here.......
These old Hammonds have big and thick steel plating in the bottom where
the pedals hook in...All in all, they weigh over 200 pounds.
But the Allen will certainly weigh over 500 pounds I believe.
My great fear is, that some time in future, I will be forced to move to
a - how do you call that in English - home where they take care of the
elder......
And that I cannot take my console with me.

Hi Geert,

Most "nursing homes" let you take your favorite thing with you.
"Assisted living" places (more expensive) definitely do.

--
Regards,

Pete
http://pete-theisen.com/
http://elect-pete-theisen.com/

Allenorganist

2011-06-22 16:05:43 UTC

Permalink

Hi, Geert,

Ok, I'm glad the 8x8 matrix will work for my project.

For the pedal reed switch wiring, would it be ok (with the midiboutique
encoder) to have the switching diodes on a "remote" breadboard inside the
organ, as is currently the case?

"( as long as you dont sit like Roy next to his freezer with the
beers......)"

Yes, there is a lot of virtual organ potential within that Allen 632-D
console. Yesterday I counted the number of stop tabs that would be available
for jOrgan stops and it actually came out to be 70, because there are many
tabs for functions that would be of no use in jOrgan (such as a "chiff
effect," for example). After those 70, there would still be tabs left over
for tremulant controls on each manual, as well as for unison couplers.

Loading Image...

As you noted, there are also a lot of pistons. There are 10 general
pistons, and there are 6 divisional pistons for each manual and for the
pedal. Above the pedal board, there are toe pistons that correspond to the
10 general combinations and 6 divisional pedal pistons. There are others
that activate and deactivate some of the intrermanual and manual-to-pedal
couplers, as well as a "Sforzando," or tutti control.

Loading Image...

Yes, you're right that the audio system is multi-channel. Originally, the
organ had four audio channels and five 100W amps (one of which is designed
for bass amplification). I hope to have a total of seven amps and six
channels in the completed project, to make full use of the Focusrite Saffire
Pro 24's six separate audio outputs.

How wide is the staircase to the second floor of your house? It may be
possible...

Greetings,

Timothy

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Allenorganist

2011-06-21 04:44:31 UTC

Permalink

Very glad to hear that there are alternatives, Graham! I look forward to
tutorials on configuring jOrgan dispositions in those ASIO-compatible ways.

Timothy

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David Gritter

2011-06-21 01:17:27 UTC

Permalink

I would suggest using the Maudio 1010 lt sound card, for roughly the
same price as the one you've chosen. The sound card has eight analog
outs and one spdif output, so you can have up to 10 speakers per card.
Its easier than most other cards to assign either mono or stereo signals
to individual outputs. Also includes an analog gain for each channel so
you can balance your outputs with different amps/etc, without needing to
give up digital resolution.

Also has a single midi in and midi out.

As for routing analog signals, If you use linuxsampler you can create as
many audio outputs from one instance of linuxsampler as you want, so
theoretically each stop could have its own audio output. These can be
routed through jackaudio to the physical outputs of your sound card.

Alternatively you can use multiple instances of fluidsynth feeding
jackaudio to route each instance to different audio physical outputs.

Dave Gritter

Post by Allenorganist
Hello, everyone!
I have a thirty-year-old, three-manual Allen 632-D Computer organ that I am
planning to convert entirely over to MIDI (including pistons, toe pistons,
reversibles, expression shoes, etc.).
http://jorgan.999862.n4.nabble.com/file/n3608270/DSCI1976.jpg
As you can see in that picture, the organ is already equipped with some
MIDI (and jOrgan), but it only applies to the pedal division. Since I have a
relatively low budget, Hauptwerk is currently not an option. As a result, I
am in the planning stages of a jOrgan installation.
It would really be appreciated if you could please try to answer the couple
questions that I have.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0018EFGTM This is the sound card that I'm
considering installing in
http://www.amazon.com/Acer-AX3910-U4022-Desktop-Black/dp/B004GL08MY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1308352964&sr=8-1
this computer . Do you have any sound card recommendations for getting the
lowest possible latency with the best sound? That's my biggest concern...
My second question is, "How is it possible to have certain stops in jOrgan
(an en chamade stop, for example) sent through its own audio channel?" The
corollary is "How are entire divisions sent through different audio
channels?" There are enough amplifiers and speakers to handle 6 separate
100W (rms) channels.
Thanks.
Timothy
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Allenorganist

2011-06-21 05:49:10 UTC

Permalink

Dave,

Thanks a lot for your suggestion; that's a great audio device.
Unfortunately, that card requires an "older" PCI-X slot, which the computer
I will be using does not have... On the M-Audio website, there is an entry
in the knowledge base entitled "
http://www.m-audio.com/index.php?do=support.faq&ID=967f0349b242acd4ed733e3c96f76bd8
PCI-Express not backward compatible with PCI and PCI-X " As a result, I've
ordered a Focusrite Saffire Pro 24 device, which seems to share many
features/capabilities with the M-Audio 1010.

It's nice that using Linuxsampler only requires one instance. I have one
(probably difficult) question... How does one go about configuring a jOrgan
disposition to communicate with LS?

Timothy

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orgel jeux

2011-06-21 06:31:12 UTC

Permalink

Very future-proof decision, Timothy, and you can also connect to laptops
etc.

The Midiboutique also offers parallel to 8x8 conversion on a small interface
unit. It is certainly less work than splitting up a busbar system, and has a
small advantage from electronic engineering point of view that your console
contacts keep switching DC voltages, what they were designed for.

For midifying the pedals, although in many cases direct switching in the
matrix works flawlessly, DC-switching has a much better protection against
disturbing electric fields, because you would need to have a much longer
length of flatcable between the pedals and the Midi encoder.

Greetings,

Geert

Post by Allenorganist
Dave,
Thanks a lot for your suggestion; that's a great audio device.
Unfortunately, that card requires an "older" PCI-X slot, which the computer
I will be using does not have... On the M-Audio website, there is an entry
in the knowledge base entitled "
http://www.m-audio.com/index.php?do=support.faq&ID=967f0349b242acd4ed733e3c96f76bd8
PCI-Express not backward compatible with PCI and PCI-X " As a result, I've
ordered a Focusrite Saffire Pro 24 device, which seems to share many
features/capabilities with the M-Audio 1010.
It's nice that using Linuxsampler only requires one instance. I have one
(probably difficult) question... How does one go about configuring a jOrgan
disposition to communicate with LS?
Timothy
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Allenorganist

2011-06-21 14:54:30 UTC

Permalink

Geert,

I'm glad that you approve of my choice in audio devices.

Regarding the conversion to parallel keying, are you saying that the 8x8
system won't work well on the organ's contacts? The conversion looks to have
an additional cost of over $100...

So far, there have been no problems with the matrix-based MIDI encoder
(from an old MIDI keyboard) that I've been using for the pedal.

Regards,

Timothy

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Patrick Lane

2011-06-21 04:19:26 UTC

Permalink

Artisan has a new connector that is spring loaded. (Mine used screw
terminals). The programming with Artisan is by a simple text file. uCapps
required some assemby code, I didn't want to get into that and I never
understood the bootstrapping. I chose Artisan, its not that expensive.
Most organs have a power supply. I'm using a massie power supply from an
old Rodgers organ, But Allen consoles also have adequate voltages and
current for Artisan. (they in the US). Artisan is also a parallel system --
no 8X8 matrixing scheme. Their system can grow with the organ project.

Patrick

-----Original Message-----
From: Allenorganist [mailto:***@aol.com]
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2011 6:36 PM
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Three-Manual Allen Organ Conversion

Hi,

Since I'm really not an experienced solderer (especially when it comes to
ICs) and do not have high-quality soldering equipment, it seems like it
might be better to invest in a professionally assembled MIDI encoder...
Geert has suggested Midiboutique, and I think that this "all-in-one" MIDI
encoder would really suit my needs well.
http://www.midiboutique.com/midiboutique/products/productform.php?prod_id=10
310
http://www.midiboutique.com/midiboutique/products/productform.php?prod_id=10
310

I will read your document about programming tomorrow.

Thanks very much for your help.

Regards,
Timothy

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Rick (greenfox)

2011-06-21 04:30:37 UTC

Permalink

uCapps uses IDC plugs so no screws, 8 switches and 2 commons in each 10
way IDC header plug.
uCapps has never needed the customer to do any bootstrapping, this was
always pre-done on purchase of the kit.
uCapps does not and never has required any assembly code
uCapps is now configured by an easy Java program. text file
configuration is a thing of the past.

Post by Patrick Lane
Artisan has a new connector that is spring loaded. (Mine used screw
terminals). The programming with Artisan is by a simple text file. uCapps
required some assemby code, I didn't want to get into that and I never
understood the bootstrapping. I chose Artisan, its not that expensive.
Most organs have a power supply. I'm using a massie power supply from an
old Rodgers organ, But Allen consoles also have adequate voltages and
current for Artisan. (they in the US). Artisan is also a parallel system --
no 8X8 matrixing scheme. Their system can grow with the organ project.
Patrick

Roy Radford

2011-06-21 15:24:56 UTC

Permalink

Hi, Timothy,

                     It might make a difference if you were in a region of severe electrical interference but if it's working OK for you, so be it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

    I've designed my own 16x8 MIDI encoder for pedals and pistons around a Pics Microcontroller and didn't give enough attention to this point. (Hang head in shame, this used to be one of my main topics in designing telephone power supplies!   )

    The jOrgan system is situated beside a 'fridge and freezer and sometimes gives improptu new registrations as they switch on and off. ANOTHER thing to fix "When I get around to it."... They do say it's always the garage mechanic who drives the scruffiest car in the district...

       Have fun,

           Roy.

--- On Tue, 21/6/11, Allenorganist <***@aol.com> wrote:

From: Allenorganist <***@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Three-Manual Allen Organ Conversion
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Date: Tuesday, 21 June, 2011, 15:54

Geert,

I'm glad that you approve of my choice in audio devices.

Regarding the conversion to parallel keying, are you saying that the 8x8
system won't work well on the organ's contacts? The conversion looks to have
an additional cost of over $100...

So far, there have been no problems with the matrix-based MIDI encoder
(from an old MIDI keyboard) that I've been using for the pedal.

Regards,

Timothy

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Allenorganist

2011-06-22 16:15:33 UTC

Permalink

Hi, Roy,

Thanks for your input! Fortunately, this console is far away from major
sources of electrical interference.

Wow..."improptu new registrations." Those appliances switching on and off
actually causes random stops to come on? I hope that you'll be able to fix
that unfortunate problem easily.

Greetings,

Timothy

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Roy Radford

2011-06-21 20:58:48 UTC

Permalink

   " ( as long as you dont sit like Roy next to his freezer with the beers......)"

    Ah, you remembered my OTHER hobby... Mind you, they're in the fridge, not the freezer... The freezer just RUINS beer bottles!

      Have fun,

         Roy.

--- On Tue, 21/6/11, orgel jeux <***@gmail.com> wrote:

From: orgel jeux <***@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Three-Manual Allen Organ Conversion
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Date: Tuesday, 21 June, 2011, 20:49

Timothy,

Don't bother about the 8x8 matrix wiring; this is absolutely going to work in your situation.
And as you have no busbar system, it is easily wired too.

I was only referring to using very long unscreened wiring in the case of the pedalboard. But it is best, to first wire the reeds swti==itches in the matrix configuration also, as in 95% of the cases this will work fine ( as long as you dont sit like Roy next to his freezer with the beers......)

In the mean time I looked up some pictures of this Allen 632D console; what a wealth of switches; I see a double row of stopswitches. And lots of pistons etc.

But I am afraid it wont go to my upper floor........ I assume the speaker system is multichannel?? Very impressive!

Greetings,

Geert

2011/6/21 Allenorganist <***@aol.com>

Hi, Rick.

You're right about the necessity of having the swell expression included in

the MIDI encoding.

Gert said that I should ask either you or Bernd about how to configure

variable low-pass filters for the various expressions. Not knowing that

those types of things were possible in jOrgan, I came up with the plan for

the use of the organ's analog circuit, which both attenuates the sound and

gradually places a low-pass filter on the Swell stops.

Regarding the midifying of the stop tabs, I think that will probably be a

later addition (with SAMs), when I have more funds available. With my

current setup, it is necessary to change stops on the pedal separately from

the organ's generals (with toe pistons). So, having "real" generals again

(with a complete jOrgan installation) will be a big improvement in the area

of registrational ease.

Thank you for your advice.

Regards,

Timothy

P.S. For anyone who might be interested in hearing what my Allen 632-D

sounds like (with jOrgan serving as the pedal division), here is a link to

my YouTube channel. http://www.youtube.com/user/GrandeBombarde16

http://www.youtube.com/user/GrandeBombarde16

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d***@frontiernet.net

2011-06-21 22:19:05 UTC

Permalink

Wow, and you're only 19!! Well done and much success on your organ career.

Regards,

Dennis

Post by Allenorganist
Hi, Rick.
You're right about the necessity of having the swell expression included in
the MIDI encoding.
Gert said that I should ask either you or Bernd about how to configure
variable low-pass filters for the various expressions. Not knowing that
those types of things were possible in jOrgan, I came up with the plan for
the use of the organ's analog circuit, which both attenuates the sound and
gradually places a low-pass filter on the Swell stops.
Regarding the midifying of the stop tabs, I think that will probably be a
later addition (with SAMs), when I have more funds available. With my
current setup, it is necessary to change stops on the pedal separately from
the organ's generals (with toe pistons). So, having "real" generals again
(with a complete jOrgan installation) will be a big improvement in the area
of registrational ease.
Thank you for your advice.
Regards,
Timothy
P.S. For anyone who might be interested in hearing what my Allen 632-D
sounds like (with jOrgan serving as the pedal division), here is a link to
my YouTube channel. http://www.youtube.com/user/GrandeBombarde16
http://www.youtube.com/user/GrandeBombarde16
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orgel jeux

2011-06-22 07:43:07 UTC

Permalink

Is this a yoke or so, again one that I do not understand???

I thought most jOrgan fans are above 50 !!!

Greetings,

Geert

Post by d***@frontiernet.net
Wow, and you're only 19!! Well done and much success on your organ career.
Regards,
Dennis

Post by Allenorganist
Hi, Rick.
You're right about the necessity of having the swell expression included

Post by Allenorganist
the MIDI encoding.
Gert said that I should ask either you or Bernd about how to configure
variable low-pass filters for the various expressions. Not knowing that
those types of things were possible in jOrgan, I came up with the plan

for

Post by Allenorganist
the use of the organ's analog circuit, which both attenuates the sound

and

Post by Allenorganist
gradually places a low-pass filter on the Swell stops.
Regarding the midifying of the stop tabs, I think that will probably be

Post by Allenorganist
later addition (with SAMs), when I have more funds available. With my
current setup, it is necessary to change stops on the pedal separately

from

Post by Allenorganist
the organ's generals (with toe pistons). So, having "real" generals again
(with a complete jOrgan installation) will be a big improvement in the

area

Post by Allenorganist
of registrational ease.
Thank you for your advice.
Regards,
Timothy
P.S. For anyone who might be interested in hearing what my Allen 632-D
sounds like (with jOrgan serving as the pedal division), here is a link

Post by Allenorganist
my YouTube channel. http://www.youtube.com/user/GrandeBombarde16
http://www.youtube.com/user/GrandeBombarde16
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Post by Allenorganist
08270p3614518.html
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Graham Goode

2011-06-22 07:54:07 UTC

Permalink

Hi Geert,

Take a look at Timothy's YouTube Videos...

http://www.youtube.com/user/GrandeBombarde16

No joke, there are a bunch of us who are well under 50 :) (ok, ok,
I've got 13 years to go until I knock on that door... so much to
learn, so much to do!)

GrahamG

Post by orgel jeux
Is this a yoke or so, again one that I do not understand???
I thought most jOrgan fans are above 50 !!!
Greetings,
Geert

Post by d***@frontiernet.net
Wow, and you're only 19!! Well done and much success on your organ career.
Regards,
Dennis

orgel jeux

2011-06-22 08:04:38 UTC

Permalink

Thanks for the clarification....as a matter of fact, in searching for vids
of the Allen console, I had seen this young man behind the console, but
there was no bell ringing........

I can assure you, that I was much older when I was able to buy my
Hammond........but at the other hand, I was constructing my first home made
electronic organ at that age.

Post by Pete Theisen
Hi Geert,
Take a look at Timothy's YouTube Videos...
http://www.youtube.com/user/GrandeBombarde16
No joke, there are a bunch of us who are well under 50 :) (ok, ok,
I've got 13 years to go until I knock on that door... so much to
learn, so much to do!)
GrahamG

Post by orgel jeux
Is this a yoke or so, again one that I do not understand???
I thought most jOrgan fans are above 50 !!!
Greetings,
Geert

Post by d***@frontiernet.net
Wow, and you're only 19!! Well done and much success on your organ

career.

Post by orgel jeux

Post by d***@frontiernet.net
Regards,
Dennis

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orgel jeux

2011-06-22 08:12:56 UTC

Permalink

Hi Timothy!

I want to tell you, that I admire your playing very much....as a matter of
fact I am also a great admirer of Karg-Elert.......

This playing of yours puts your questions and remarks on this forum in a
completey different light for me. I would say, that your playing skills,
but also your interpretations, are close to ideal for my ears.

I see now, why you mentioned the amount of stops available; they are
drawknobs!! So far I saw only Allen's with some 87 or so stops, but they
were tabs.

Can be a very rewarding project to make them activated by Midi signals!!

Thanks again for the wonderful music, to which I am going to listen now.

Greetings,

Geert

Post by orgel jeux
Thanks for the clarification....as a matter of fact, in searching for vids
of the Allen console, I had seen this young man behind the console, but
there was no bell ringing........
I can assure you, that I was much older when I was able to buy my
Hammond........but at the other hand, I was constructing my first home made
electronic organ at that age.

Post by orgel jeux
Is this a yoke or so, again one that I do not understand???
I thought most jOrgan fans are above 50 !!!
Greetings,
Geert

Post by d***@frontiernet.net
Wow, and you're only 19!! Well done and much success on your organ

career.

Post by orgel jeux

Post by d***@frontiernet.net
Regards,
Dennis

orgel jeux

2011-06-22 08:21:45 UTC

Permalink

Oepsss..... its a Parsons!! Very nice sound, this instrument....it reminds
me of some instruments over here in Europe........

Like your channel very much!!

Geert

Post by orgel jeux
Hi Timothy!
I want to tell you, that I admire your playing very much....as a matter of
fact I am also a great admirer of Karg-Elert.......
This playing of yours puts your questions and remarks on this forum in a
completey different light for me. I would say, that your playing skills,
but also your interpretations, are close to ideal for my ears.
I see now, why you mentioned the amount of stops available; they are
drawknobs!! So far I saw only Allen's with some 87 or so stops, but they
were tabs.
Can be a very rewarding project to make them activated by Midi signals!!
Thanks again for the wonderful music, to which I am going to listen now.
Greetings,
Geert

Post by orgel jeux
Is this a yoke or so, again one that I do not understand???
I thought most jOrgan fans are above 50 !!!
Greetings,
Geert

Post by d***@frontiernet.net
Wow, and you're only 19!! Well done and much success on your organ

career.

Post by orgel jeux

Post by d***@frontiernet.net
Regards,
Dennis

orgel jeux

2011-06-22 08:49:10 UTC

Permalink

Ok, Timothy,

I watched all your vids! I can understand now, why you want to make your
ome instrument more like the real thing!!

Thanks also for playing on those different pipe organs. I like all 3 of
them, and I find the Schlicker particularly nice in the Bach chorales. whcih
I myself also like to play.

It certainly has improved upon my appreciation of American organs!

Would be nice, if, in future, you could also do a CF Chorale on the 43 ranks
Parsons, just for comparison with some instruments over here.

The fact that you like Ben van Oosten, who is a wellknown performer of the
Fr Rom repertoire in my country, makes me believe, that your CF
interpretations could be very interesting........

I see this PC screen on the left side of your Allen; it seems that you
already have made a jOrgan disposition?????

Greetings, and thanks very much for the extremely good video performances!!

Geert

Post by orgel jeux
Oepsss..... its a Parsons!! Very nice sound, this instrument....it reminds
me of some instruments over here in Europe........
Like your channel very much!!
Geert

Post by orgel jeux
Thanks for the clarification....as a matter of fact, in searching for
vids of the Allen console, I had seen this young man behind the console, but
there was no bell ringing........
I can assure you, that I was much older when I was able to buy my
Hammond........but at the other hand, I was constructing my first home made
electronic organ at that age.

Post by orgel jeux
Is this a yoke or so, again one that I do not understand???
I thought most jOrgan fans are above 50 !!!
Greetings,
Geert

Post by d***@frontiernet.net
Wow, and you're only 19!! Well done and much success on your organ

career.

Post by orgel jeux

Post by d***@frontiernet.net
Regards,
Dennis

DellAnderson

2011-06-22 09:32:00 UTC

Permalink

Just a quick note from a semi-lurker in this thread to say thanks for this
thread and 'keep posting' because I'm all ears. In fact, I just recently
ordered the Midiboutique bundle #3 before reading of Timothy's decision to
go with the Artisan, and am hoping for the best. After reading that "The
Midiboutique also offers parallel to 8x8 conversion on a small interface
unit." I'm beginning to wonder if I should get that option instead...

Bottom line, there are so many many choices, I think I'll just get one of
each (Midiboutique & Artisan) and whichever one my brain is able to wrap
around better will be the third one I use. This is madness, but I don't
think I will ever understand this stuff until I get my hands on it and
actually do the deed. Studying the (Rodgers 32) technical manual only gets
me more confused. The Midio128 is probably what I should be ordering, but
long story short, I just want to see the organ out of the garage and into a
home (if not mine, someone else's).

Back to Three Manual Allen posts and reading...

Dell

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orgel jeux

2011-06-22 09:43:35 UTC

Permalink

Hi Dell,

Interesting story you tell...

Itss a pity that we live so far apart, because, as I have dealt with
electronics all my live both professionally and as a home organ constructor,
I would be glad to help!

What kind of console is it, that you want to midify?? And what is itexactly
that you ordered form Midiboutique??

For big consoles the hwce-max is a good choice.
But I think, over there in the US, you can get a bit cheaper units, as the
Euro at the moment is a bit expensive .

greetings,

Geert

Post by DellAnderson
Just a quick note from a semi-lurker in this thread to say thanks for this
thread and 'keep posting' because I'm all ears. In fact, I just recently
ordered the Midiboutique bundle #3 before reading of Timothy's decision to
go with the Artisan, and am hoping for the best. After reading that "The
Midiboutique also offers parallel to 8x8 conversion on a small interface
unit." I'm beginning to wonder if I should get that option instead...
Bottom line, there are so many many choices, I think I'll just get one of
each (Midiboutique & Artisan) and whichever one my brain is able to wrap
around better will be the third one I use. This is madness, but I don't
think I will ever understand this stuff until I get my hands on it and
actually do the deed. Studying the (Rodgers 32) technical manual only gets
me more confused. The Midio128 is probably what I should be ordering, but
long story short, I just want to see the organ out of the garage and into a
home (if not mine, someone else's).
Back to Three Manual Allen posts and reading...
Dell
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orgel jeux

2011-06-22 09:52:38 UTC

Permalink

Hi Dell,

I see now what bundle 3 is actually.

If you really ordered that, then you have your parallel input devices
already; the keymux 64 units.

An expensive order........

greeetings,

Geert

Post by orgel jeux
Hi Dell,
Interesting story you tell...
Itss a pity that we live so far apart, because, as I have dealt with
electronics all my live both professionally and as a home organ constructor,
I would be glad to help!
What kind of console is it, that you want to midify?? And what is itexactly
that you ordered form Midiboutique??
For big consoles the hwce-max is a good choice.
But I think, over there in the US, you can get a bit cheaper units, as the
Euro at the moment is a bit expensive .
greetings,
Geert

DellAnderson

2011-06-22 09:58:37 UTC

Permalink

Post by orgel jeux
Itss a pity that we live so far apart, because, as I have dealt with
electronics all my live both professionally and as a home organ constructor,
I would be glad to help!
What kind of console is it, that you want to midify?? And what is itexactly
that you ordered form Midiboutique??
For big consoles the hwce-max is a good choice.
But I think, over there in the US, you can get a bit cheaper units, as the
Euro at the moment is a bit expensive .
greetings,
Geert

Yes, Geert, a pity indeed. But my loss is your gain as you know I would
dearly love to have your expertise.

My next two project organs are 3 manual AGO church-style Rodgers 32 (one is
32B the other 32C) organs. I have technical manuals but I do not completely
understand the keying diagrams (active vs. passive) but they appear to be
-12v, but some complicate stuff seems to go on, and I am not sure if the
stop tabs go directly to ground etc. The pedals have magnetic reed
switches, the stop tabs have SAM type mechanisms + a simple setter board on
one of the consoles (the other is completely manual). The other console
has the upgraded optical swell resistor mechanism, but doesn't play as
nicely as the console with the SAMS and setter board. It's console is a bit
more, shall we say, sun bleached and worn.

The kit I ordered was this one exactly (but I may be able to amend if I let
him know right away - customer service appears excellent and prompt):
http://largonet.net/midiboutique/products/productform.php?prod_id=10313

I also have a 2 manual AGO junk console in storage which would require a lot
of finish work, but I have thought of putting it into an RV for practice
when traveling (my dream if I live long enough and can still afford petrol)
;-)

You are right - I cannot see much price advantage of the MidiBoutique over
the Artisan 3 manual kit, now that I look at it.

best,

Dell

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DellAnderson

2011-06-22 10:04:33 UTC

Permalink

Expensive yes. As my mother says, 'education costs money'. I am more
educated now. Don't know i fthis link will work, but I uploaded an excerpt
of my organs schematic here (and now I must sleep):
http://jorgan.999862.n4.nabble.com/file/n3616571/Rodgers32_TechnicalManual_p5%266.pdf
Rodgers32_TechnicalManual_p5%266.pdf

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orgel jeux

2011-06-22 10:11:48 UTC

Permalink

Dell, I will have a look onto this.

Perhaps we could also communicate on private mail, if necessary.

One quick reaction: with the hwce unit you haveonly 4 times 64 key inputs.
So with a 3M+P you would not have extra inputs for midified SAM's, or, even
worse, for combination switches.

I think it would be wise to first decide what you want to have midified.

Of course you can add separate Midi encoders later for those purposes,
but*the hwce/max is only some E 20,/ more expensive, and offers a
complete row
of 64 extra inputs, ideal for presets.
*
Then you could on a later time, think about midifiying the SAMŽs with
separate Midi hardware.

Greetings,

Geert

Post by DellAnderson
Expensive yes. As my mother says, 'education costs money'. I am more
educated now. Don't know i fthis link will work, but I uploaded an excerpt
http://jorgan.999862.n4.nabble.com/file/n3616571/Rodgers32_TechnicalManual_p5%266.pdf
Rodgers32_TechnicalManual_p5%266.pdf
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orgel jeux

2011-06-22 11:45:01 UTC

Permalink

Interfacing Rodgers 3M with Midiboutique encoder:

The hwce-max offers 6 times 8x8 matrix encoding, versus hwce only 4 times.
Price difference is only E 20, so that gives you for E 20,- a 128 inputs
Midi encoder extra.

You can further save much by using 4 times sm 8x8 makes E 80,- opposed to 4
times keymux 64 wich is E 200.-

They have exactly the same functionality, only the keymux needs 4
connectors where as sm needs 8. A little more work but much cheaper.

For this 80 bucks it is worthwhile to do it, instead of making your own kb
matrix with diodes soldered in etc.

But for E 200,- I would gladly do the not very difficult job of wiring the
keyboards yourself.

When you use the sm 8x8, you need to cut the busbar ( if the rodgers has a
busbar) into groups of 8 keys.

Saw your posts and b-log; obviously it was Olivier Latry you were talking
about. I had the pleasure of having a short conversation with him when he
was over here in Amsterdam a year ago. Indeed very complex and powerful
improvisations......

Greetings,

Geert

Post by orgel jeux
Dell, I will have a look onto this.
Perhaps we could also communicate on private mail, if necessary.
One quick reaction: with the hwce unit you haveonly 4 times 64 key inputs.
So with a 3M+P you would not have extra inputs for midified SAM's, or, even
worse, for combination switches.
I think it would be wise to first decide what you want to have midified.
Of course you can add separate Midi encoders later for those purposes, but
* the hwce/max is only some E 20,/ more expensive, and offers a complete
row of 64 extra inputs, ideal for presets.
*
Then you could on a later time, think about midifiying the SAMŽs with
separate Midi hardware.
Greetings,
Geert

orgel jeux

2011-06-22 11:51:33 UTC

Permalink

Del, I see that the Artisan for a 3M instrument costs 650 dollars and for
that price you do not have extra mux inputs for presets,or stops.

That it is solderless, yes, they all are!! Since we have flatcable
connectors. So that,s not really a benefit.

But perhaps E 260 plus shipping costs is nearly the same investment??

Greetings,

Geert

Post by orgel jeux
The hwce-max offers 6 times 8x8 matrix encoding, versus hwce only 4 times.
Price difference is only E 20, so that gives you for E 20,- a 128 inputs
Midi encoder extra.
You can further save much by using 4 times sm 8x8 makes E 80,- opposed to 4
times keymux 64 wich is E 200.-
They have exactly the same functionality, only the keymux needs 4
connectors where as sm needs 8. A little more work but much cheaper.
For this 80 bucks it is worthwhile to do it, instead of making your own kb
matrix with diodes soldered in etc.
But for E 200,- I would gladly do the not very difficult job of wiring the
keyboards yourself.
When you use the sm 8x8, you need to cut the busbar ( if the rodgers has a
busbar) into groups of 8 keys.
Saw your posts and b-log; obviously it was Olivier Latry you were talking
about. I had the pleasure of having a short conversation with him when he
was over here in Amsterdam a year ago. Indeed very complex and powerful
improvisations......
Greetings,
Geert

Post by orgel jeux
Dell, I will have a look onto this.
Perhaps we could also communicate on private mail, if necessary.
One quick reaction: with the hwce unit you haveonly 4 times 64 key
inputs. So with a 3M+P you would not have extra inputs for midified SAM's,
or, even worse, for combination switches.
I think it would be wise to first decide what you want to have midified.
Of course you can add separate Midi encoders later for those purposes, but
* the hwce/max is only some E 20,/ more expensive, and offers a complete
row of 64 extra inputs, ideal for presets.
*
Then you could on a later time, think about midifiying the SAMŽs with
separate Midi hardware.
Greetings,
Geert

Graham Harrison

2011-06-22 18:12:31 UTC

Permalink

Geert et al

The Midiboutique hwce-max has been superseded by the hwce-2x, which is basically an upgraded, user-programmable hwce-max for slightly less cost.

As you probably know, I have always been pleased with the kit and the service provided by Midiboutique.

GrahamH
----- Original Message -----
From: orgel jeux
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 11:11 AM
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Three-Manual Rodgers Organ Conversion - Was Re: Three-Manual Allen Organ Conversion

Dell, I will have a look onto this.

Perhaps we could also communicate on private mail, if necessary.

One quick reaction: with the hwce unit you haveonly 4 times 64 key inputs. So with a 3M+P you would not have extra inputs for midified SAM's, or, even worse, for combination switches.

I think it would be wise to first decide what you want to have midified.

Of course you can add separate Midi encoders later for those purposes, but the hwce/max is only some E 20,/ more expensive, and offers a complete row of 64 extra inputs, ideal for presets.

Then you could on a later time, think about midifiying the SAMŽs with separate Midi hardware.

Greetings,

Geert

2011/6/22 DellAnderson <***@anim8.com>

Expensive yes. As my mother says, 'education costs money'. I am more
educated now. Don't know i fthis link will work, but I uploaded an excerpt
of my organs schematic here (and now I must sleep):
http://jorgan.999862.n4.nabble.com/file/n3616571/Rodgers32_TechnicalManual_p5%266.pdf
Rodgers32_TechnicalManual_p5%266.pdf

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DellAnderson

2011-06-22 19:17:01 UTC

Permalink

Thanks GrahamH and Geert for your encouragement and valuable information.

To keep things clean and avoid diluting Timothy's excellent Three Manual
Allen Thread, I have started a new one for my 3 Manual Rodgers organs here:
http://jorgan.999862.n4.nabble.com/OT-3-manual-Rodgers-conversion-not-to-be-confused-with-Allen-thread-td3617914.html
http://jorgan.999862.n4.nabble.com/OT-3-manual-Rodgers-conversion-not-to-be-confused-with-Allen-thread-td3617914.html

I do appreciate the indulgence of jOrgan readers in this slightly off topic,
but close-to-the-jOrgan spirit conversion process.

PS - Geert, I have emailed you privately. Excellent sleuthing on finding my
blog! ;-) You were of course exactly right about Latry! How nice you
actually spoke with him.

best,

Dell

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orgel jeux

2011-06-22 19:48:51 UTC

Permalink

Hi Graham,

Good to hear form you.......

Yes, I saw the newer unit, together with its improved programming software.

As I now see, that Dell wants to keep his - 12 volts busbar switching, i
must think b=about your solution with all the separate kb encoders per
manual.

These encoders have of course the advantage that you can have them with pos
or neg DC voltage switching directly, but Dell would need 3 of them, plus a
pedal unit, which makes it an expensive solution

Many greetings to you, Graham, and best wishes also from Jolinda !!

Geert

Post by DellAnderson
Thanks GrahamH and Geert for your encouragement and valuable information.
To keep things clean and avoid diluting Timothy's excellent Three Manual
http://jorgan.999862.n4.nabble.com/OT-3-manual-Rodgers-conversion-not-to-be-confused-with-Allen-thread-td3617914.html
http://jorgan.999862.n4.nabble.com/OT-3-manual-Rodgers-conversion-not-to-be-confused-with-Allen-thread-td3617914.html
I do appreciate the indulgence of jOrgan readers in this slightly off topic,
but close-to-the-jOrgan spirit conversion process.
PS - Geert, I have emailed you privately. Excellent sleuthing on finding my
blog! ;-) You were of course exactly right about Latry! How nice you
actually spoke with him.
best,
Dell
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Allenorganist

2011-06-22 18:04:00 UTC

Permalink

Hi, Dell,

I believe that I'll actually be going with one of the large midiboutique
encoders. The Artisan system is too expensive for my budget...

-Timothy

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orgel jeux

2011-06-22 19:19:00 UTC

Permalink

Timothy, see also what I answered to Dell Anderson about the
Midiboutique........

Having the diodematrix in the pedalboard would be possible; in the worst
case, when the long cabling would pick up stray signals, it is being done to
have the 8x8 matrix wiring towards the encoder board made of screened cable.

But actually when you place the board somewhere at the level of the lowest
manual, the actual wiring towards the pedal board is not that long.......

Allenorganist

2011-06-23 08:04:28 UTC

Permalink

Geert,

Thanks for your reply. I shall try to make the pedal wires as short as
possible.

My organ project is on a budget too, so conversion boards will probably be
avoided in my case as well.

Greetings,

Timothy

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orgel jeux

2011-06-23 08:07:01 UTC

Permalink

Its time you go to bed....I think.

Over here it is 10.00 in the moring now.

THis project of yours, I have much faith in it!!

Greetings,

Geert

Post by Allenorganist
Geert,
Thanks for your reply. I shall try to make the pedal wires as short as
possible.
My organ project is on a budget too, so conversion boards will probably be
avoided in my case as well.
Greetings,
Timothy
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DellAnderson

2011-06-22 20:54:10 UTC

Permalink

Post by Allenorganist
Hi, Dell,
I believe that I'll actually be going with one of the large midiboutique
encoders. The Artisan system is too expensive for my budget...
-Timothy

Quick note! Wait! Much as I would like to think we are in this together,
we actually have quite different organs.

I'm not even sure if you can easily convert your Allen to MIDI using
Midiboutique or Artisan without destroying the onboard sound (not a big
deal, but why bother if it cost more?). If I understand correctly, your
632D is a MOS-1 Allen computer organ. This means that there is an
after-market MIDI converter that works with the 'special' circuits that
Allen used. I don't recall the price, but I vaguely recall something in the
order of $300...If it is a MOS-2 there is also now another MIDI converter
available from a different supplier (they cannot be interchanged, so it is
important to determine for sure what you have!!)

I would do some research on this and perhaps post in the Organ Forum for
help. See this link:
http://www.organforum.com/forums/showthread.php?4736-Need-info-on-Allen-632-D
http://www.organforum.com/forums/showthread.php?4736-Need-info-on-Allen-632-D

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DellAnderson

2011-06-22 20:56:04 UTC

Permalink

Timothy, quick addition to my last cautionary note. I am definitely not an
advocate or in any way affiliated with this guy, but this converter may do
what you need for about the same price or less:
http://store.hlabs.com/pk4/store.pl?view_product=61
http://store.hlabs.com/pk4/store.pl?view_product=61

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DellAnderson

2011-06-22 20:57:47 UTC

Permalink

Timothy, the last two posts were mainly if you have a MOS-1 organ.

If yours is MOS-2, then this would be your option (both look to be basically
plug and play!):
http://www.organforum.com/forums/showthread.php?14824-MIDI-Keyboard-Adaptor-For-Allen-MOS-2-Organs
http://www.organforum.com/forums/showthread.php?14824-MIDI-Keyboard-Adaptor-For-Allen-MOS-2-Organs

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DellAnderson

2011-06-22 21:06:15 UTC

Permalink

Geert,

Jordan is probably snowed under with questions now that I and you have both
sent inquiries. I'm not sure what the next step should be, or what level
my order actually is in.

Meanwhile, regarding your question of why retain the old stops:
1) I hate destroying something that works...also I have no guarantees that I
will successfully complete the MIDI conversion
2) There is something to be said for the simplicity of 'switch on, play
instantly'
3) The organ was a classic and involves no IC circuits or anything special
except transistors, resistors, capacitors, inductors etc, so should be
maintainable by the user - there is a certain warmth to the slightly out of
tuneness
4) I hate being depending on complex software that constantly requires
updates, etc.

I may try and post some samples of how the organ sounds to a 'private' link
on YouTube... I recently uninstalled a bunch of apps that I need to do this,
so it may take a few minutes...

Dell

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orgel jeux

2011-06-22 20:58:57 UTC

Permalink

Good idea, although from what I read, the Organ Forum is also a place where
there is also a lot of non-technical chit-chat and gossip without real
information.......

Geert

Post by DellAnderson

Post by Allenorganist
Hi, Dell,
I believe that I'll actually be going with one of the large midiboutique
encoders. The Artisan system is too expensive for my budget...
-Timothy

Quick note! Wait! Much as I would like to think we are in this together,
we actually have quite different organs.
I'm not even sure if you can easily convert your Allen to MIDI using
Midiboutique or Artisan without destroying the onboard sound (not a big
deal, but why bother if it cost more?). If I understand correctly, your
632D is a MOS-1 Allen computer organ. This means that there is an
after-market MIDI converter that works with the 'special' circuits that
Allen used. I don't recall the price, but I vaguely recall something in the
order of $300...If it is a MOS-2 there is also now another MIDI converter
available from a different supplier (they cannot be interchanged, so it is
important to determine for sure what you have!!)
I would do some research on this and perhaps post in the Organ Forum for
http://www.organforum.com/forums/showthread.php?4736-Need-info-on-Allen-632-D
http://www.organforum.com/forums/showthread.php?4736-Need-info-on-Allen-632-D
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Installation's a snap, and flexible recovery options mean your data is
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Lynn Walls

2011-06-22 21:21:18 UTC

Permalink

Once upon a time there was a company, Keyboard Systems, that sold MIDI encoder systems for
Allen, Lowrey, Hammond, and other electronic organs, that could be integrated/installed
into the organ WITHOUT damaging the organ's ability to function normally with its native
electronics. That system cost about $100 for the main computer and about $100 for each
keyboard being MIDI-fied. See here:

http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/VTPO/message/16244

Sadly, Keyboard Systems seems to have gone under, and apparently no one else is selling
their equipment any longer.

CLW
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Post by DellAnderson

Post by Allenorganist
Hi, Dell,
I believe that I'll actually be going with one of the large midiboutique
encoders. The Artisan system is too expensive for my budget...
-Timothy

DellAnderson

2011-06-23 01:24:18 UTC

Permalink

I think that is similar to what Harrison Labs is selling now for the MOS-1,
and Zuma Group, for the MOS-1 organs.

Earlier Allens you could just sacrifice one of the living keyboard contacts
(I think there about 7 per key depending on the number of generator types)
and use that. With the MOS organs you don't need to do that.

Post by Lynn Walls
Once upon a time there was a company, Keyboard Systems, that sold MIDI encoder systems for
Allen, Lowrey, Hammond, and other electronic organs, that could be integrated/installed
into the organ WITHOUT damaging the organ's ability to function normally with its native
electronics. That system cost about $100 for the main computer and about $100 for each
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/VTPO/message/16244
Sadly, Keyboard Systems seems to have gone under, and apparently no one else is selling
their equipment any longer.
CLW
------------------

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Laurent Leblanc

2011-06-23 01:31:39 UTC

Permalink

Artisan makes a unit that connects directly to Allen MOS-1 and MOS-2 organs to get MIDI out of the keys and pedals. The unit is not on their website but they do sell it. Just email them or call them.
Their unit does a keyboard for about 100 dollars US. It requires no additional key contacts and it leaves the original Allen playing.

Post by DellAnderson
I think that is similar to what Harrison Labs is selling now for the MOS-1,
and Zuma Group, for the MOS-1 organs.
Earlier Allens you could just sacrifice one of the living keyboard contacts
(I think there about 7 per key depending on the number of generator types)
and use that. With the MOS organs you don't need to do that.

Post by Lynn Walls
Once upon a time there was a company, Keyboard Systems, that sold MIDI
encoder systems for
Allen, Lowrey, Hammond, and other electronic organs, that could be integrated/installed
into the organ WITHOUT damaging the organ's ability to function normally with its native
electronics. That system cost about $100 for the main computer and about $100 for each
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/VTPO/message/16244
Sadly, Keyboard Systems seems to have gone under, and apparently no one else is selling
their equipment any longer.
CLW
------------------

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DellAnderson

2011-06-23 01:46:02 UTC

Permalink

That sounds a bit more pricey, but if it is Artisan, should be good too!

Post by Laurent Leblanc
Artisan makes a unit that connects directly to Allen MOS-1 and MOS-2
organs to get MIDI out of the keys and pedals. The unit is not on their
website but they do sell it. Just email them or call them.
Their unit does a keyboard for about 100 dollars US. It requires no
additional key contacts and it leaves the original Allen playing.

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Allenorganist

2011-06-23 07:52:53 UTC

Permalink

Hi, Dell,

Yes, our organs are very different... I believe that our project goals are
different as well. You're right, my Allen is a MOS-1 organ. However, my
actual intent is to not use the Allen's tone generation any longer. This is
because I would like to dedicate the Allen's multi-channel audio system
exclusively to the new jOrgan disposition.

Post by DellAnderson
Timothy, quick addition to my last cautionary note. I am definitely not
an
advocate or in any way affiliated with this guy, but this converter may do
http://store.hlabs.com/pk4/store.pl?view_product=61

Quoted from:
http://jorgan.999862.n4.nabble.com/Re-Three-Manual-Allen-Organ-Conversion-tp3608270p3618221.html

Thanks very much for the suggestion, Dell, but using that Harrison Labs
system would actually end up costing much more in my situation. I have
ordered a Focusrite Saffire Pro 24 Firewire audio interface, which has only
one MIDI-in port. As a result, with at least four different MIDI cables
coming from the Harrison encoders, I would need a MIDI merger device. This "
http://www.midisolutions.com/prodqmr.htm Quadra Merge " is $129. In
addition, the Harrison Labs system for three manuals (no pedal) is actually
$20 more than a fully programmable
http://www.largonet.net/midiboutique/products/productform.php?prod_id=10410
midiboutique unit that is able to encode more than twice as many (390)
switch signals (which allows the pedal, pistons, stops, and couplers to be
encoded by the same unit), handle expression pedals, etc. This unit also
outputs to only one MIDI cable (capable of 16 channels), obviating a MIDI
merger and/or MIDI-to-USB converter.

Regards,

Timothy

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orgel jeux

2011-06-23 07:59:37 UTC

Permalink

Good route you are in, Timothy.......

Geert

Post by Allenorganist
Hi, Dell,
Yes, our organs are very different... I believe that our project goals are
different as well. You're right, my Allen is a MOS-1 organ. However, my
actual intent is to not use the Allen's tone generation any longer. This is
because I would like to dedicate the Allen's multi-channel audio system
exclusively to the new jOrgan disposition.

Post by DellAnderson
Timothy, quick addition to my last cautionary note. I am definitely not
an
advocate or in any way affiliated with this guy, but this converter may

Post by DellAnderson
http://store.hlabs.com/pk4/store.pl?view_product=61

http://jorgan.999862.n4.nabble.com/Re-Three-Manual-Allen-Organ-Conversion-tp3608270p3618221.html
Thanks very much for the suggestion, Dell, but using that Harrison Labs
system would actually end up costing much more in my situation. I have
ordered a Focusrite Saffire Pro 24 Firewire audio interface, which has only
one MIDI-in port. As a result, with at least four different MIDI cables
coming from the Harrison encoders, I would need a MIDI merger device. This "
http://www.midisolutions.com/prodqmr.htm Quadra Merge " is $129. In
addition, the Harrison Labs system for three manuals (no pedal) is actually
$20 more than a fully programmable
http://www.largonet.net/midiboutique/products/productform.php?prod_id=10410
midiboutique unit that is able to encode more than twice as many (390)
switch signals (which allows the pedal, pistons, stops, and couplers to be
encoded by the same unit), handle expression pedals, etc. This unit also
outputs to only one MIDI cable (capable of 16 channels), obviating a MIDI
merger and/or MIDI-to-USB converter.
Regards,
Timothy
--
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Allenorganist

2011-06-23 00:12:15 UTC

Permalink

Geert,

Thanks for watching my videos; glad you enjoyed the pipe organs. Yes, that
Schlicker organ is beautifully suited to Baroque music. I shall try to begin
delving into Caesar Franck's Chorales as soon as I can... I love Ben van
Oosten's manner of performing French Romantic music. He's certainly among
the best, if not the best interpreter of that music.

My Allen 632-D was very good for it's era (late 1970s), but, as you heard,
it sounds totally synthetic in comparison to what is possible with today's
technology.

Yes, since 2009, I have been using a jOrgan disposition for only the pedal
division. The Allen's original pedal stops were SO weak and unrealistic,
that I midified the pedal board with a 7x7 encoder from an old midi
keyboard. The green speaker cabinet shown below handles most of the jOrgan
stops. With multichannel audio, I hope to give the pedal two channels and
four cabinets.

Loading Image...

15" subwoofer cabinet for floor (not being used in the present audio setup)

Loading Image...

You're very welcome for the video performances!

Greetings,

Timothy

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Pete Theisen

2011-06-23 00:31:21 UTC

Permalink

Post by Allenorganist
Geert,
Thanks for watching my videos; glad you enjoyed the pipe organs. Yes, that
Schlicker organ is beautifully suited to Baroque music. I shall try to begin
delving into Caesar Franck's Chorales as soon as I can... I love Ben van
Oosten's manner of performing French Romantic music. He's certainly among
the best, if not the best interpreter of that music.
My Allen 632-D was very good for it's era (late 1970s), but, as you heard,
it sounds totally synthetic in comparison to what is possible with today's
technology.
Yes, since 2009, I have been using a jOrgan disposition for only the pedal
division. The Allen's original pedal stops were SO weak and unrealistic,
that I midified the pedal board with a 7x7 encoder from an old midi
keyboard. The green speaker cabinet shown below handles most of the jOrgan
stops. With multichannel audio, I hope to give the pedal two channels and
four cabinets.

Hi Timothy,

Whoa Nellie! Four cabinets? It might be my imagination but as I was
listening to your video I had the feeling that your pedal is already
stronger than the rest of the organ. Of course, that is just my opinion.

--
Regards,

Pete
http://pete-theisen.com/
http://elect-pete-theisen.com/

Pete Theisen

2011-06-23 00:32:38 UTC

Permalink

--
Regards,

Pete
http://pete-theisen.com/
http://elect-pete-theisen.com/

Allenorganist

2011-06-23 03:04:52 UTC

Permalink

Hi, Pete,

"I had the feeling that your pedal is already stronger than the rest of the
organ"

The organ currently does seem to be balanced in the room... However, the
pedal division is jOrgan and the manual tone is 30-year-old Allen
technology, so that may be what is causing you to perceive an imbalance.

"Whoa Nellie! Four cabinets?"

Yes, the more cabinets and audio channels there are, the less load is
placed on each speaker, yielding a clearer (not distorted), more realistic
sound. Ideally, each stop should have it's own channel. The
http://www.marshallandogletree.com/index.php/inst/opus1/ Marshall and
Ogletree Opus One installed in Trinity Church Wall Street, NYC actually
comes very close to achieving that ideal. The remarkable en chamade stop has
eight audio channels dedicated to it.

http://youtu.be/O8uRIaKGEoI
The first would be a 15" floor cabinet connected to a crossover so that
only the lowest frequencies would be sent to it. The second cabinet would
handle the harmonics of the 10 2/3', 16', and 32' stops. The final two (8"
three-way cabinets) would be on a different audio channel and would handle
all of the pedal stops from 8' up.

Regards,

Timothy

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orgel jeux

2011-06-23 07:58:54 UTC

Permalink

I like the trinity church also. Seen Barbara Dennerlein playing on it
already??

Concerning bass response: keep in mind that the overall length of the
listening room may be a limiting factor in producing some very low
frequencies!!

About these conversion kits for the older analog organs: maybe that is a
good route, but I also think that it is a diminishing market.

Constructing a simple interface with CMOS switches is really very simple; I
use to glue the IC's lying on their back with the pins pointing upwards onto
a long small strip of pertinax with 0,1 inch spaced holes in it ( radio
shack) and wire everything directly on that board.
As it is all only DC switching, the total layout is non-critical.
The very low power consumption of these CMOS devices makes it ideal to have
the power supply tapped from the original instrument also.

Nice work, Timothy, using the electronics of an old keyboard for your
pedals. Which samples do you use for the pedals??

Greetings,

Geert

Post by Allenorganist
Hi, Pete,
"I had the feeling that your pedal is already stronger than the rest of the
organ"
The organ currently does seem to be balanced in the room... However, the
pedal division is jOrgan and the manual tone is 30-year-old Allen
technology, so that may be what is causing you to perceive an imbalance.
"Whoa Nellie! Four cabinets?"
Yes, the more cabinets and audio channels there are, the less load is
placed on each speaker, yielding a clearer (not distorted), more realistic
sound. Ideally, each stop should have it's own channel. The
http://www.marshallandogletree.com/index.php/inst/opus1/ Marshall and
Ogletree Opus One installed in Trinity Church Wall Street, NYC actually
comes very close to achieving that ideal. The remarkable en chamade stop has
eight audio channels dedicated to it.
http://youtu.be/O8uRIaKGEoI
http://youtu.be/O8uRIaKGEoI
The first would be a 15" floor cabinet connected to a crossover so that
only the lowest frequencies would be sent to it. The second cabinet would
handle the harmonics of the 10 2/3', 16', and 32' stops. The final two (8"
three-way cabinets) would be on a different audio channel and would handle
all of the pedal stops from 8' up.
Regards,
Timothy
--
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Pete Theisen

2011-06-23 09:06:07 UTC

Permalink

Allenorganist wrote:

Hi Timothy,

Post by Allenorganist
The organ currently does seem to be balanced in the room...

Well, then your recording may have distorted the balance.

Post by Allenorganist
The first would be a 15" floor cabinet connected to a crossover so that
only the lowest frequencies would be sent to it. The second cabinet would
handle the harmonics of the 10 2/3', 16', and 32' stops. The final two (8"
three-way cabinets) would be on a different audio channel and would handle
all of the pedal stops from 8' up.

How big is the room? Will anything else be in the room but the organ and
its speakers?

--
Regards,

Pete
http://pete-theisen.com/
http://elect-pete-theisen.com/

Allenorganist

2011-06-23 11:34:26 UTC

Permalink

Hi, Pete,

Which recording are you referring to when you speak of this imbalance? I'm
almost persuaded to think that your speaker system does not reproduce the
frequency spectrum well enough for organ music...

"How big is the room? Will anything else be in the room but the organ and
its speakers?"

The room is fairly large with cathedral ceilings and a loft. The
approximate dimensions are 25' long x 15' wide x 14' high (at peak). The
room is a large living room, so, in addition to the organ and speakers,
there is a couch, a large chair, and other furniture.

Loading Image...

Regards,

Timothy

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Pete Theisen

2011-06-23 12:06:59 UTC

Permalink

Hi Timothy,

You posted a link, if you recall. The link was to you playing a rather
nice pipe organ, which was well balanced pedal/manual. My listening to
this selection was on the same speakers as on the later selection.

After listening to this I reflected that your post referred to an Allen
organ and I tried to find an example. I think I picked the first one
from the sidebar that featured an Allen organ: Grand Choeur Dialogue.

I thought the pedal on the Allen selection was rather stronger than the
manual. Enough so that you certainly don't need it to be any more. Save
the space and use the money for something other than speakers.

Remember, the same speakers here listening to both organs.

--
Regards,

Pete
http://pete-theisen.com/
http://elect-pete-theisen.com/

orgel jeux

2011-06-23 12:26:06 UTC

Permalink

Detected that your Swell division sounds from above.....very realistic!

Post by Allenorganist
Hi, Pete,
Which recording are you referring to when you speak of this imbalance? I'm
almost persuaded to think that your speaker system does not reproduce the
frequency spectrum well enough for organ music...
"How big is the room? Will anything else be in the room but the organ and
its speakers?"
The room is fairly large with cathedral ceilings and a loft. The
approximate dimensions are 25' long x 15' wide x 14' high (at peak). The
room is a large living room, so, in addition to the organ and speakers,
there is a couch, a large chair, and other furniture.
http://jorgan.999862.n4.nabble.com/file/n3619552/View_from_Swell_Speakers_%232.jpg
Regards,
Timothy
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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safe,
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Nope - It's vRanger. Get your free trial download today.
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_______________________________________________
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Allenorganist

2011-06-22 17:58:56 UTC

Permalink

Yes, that Parsons pipe organ is a wonderful instrument.

I'm glad you really like my channel.

-Timothy

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Allenorganist

2011-06-22 17:55:10 UTC

Permalink

Hello, Geert!

Thanks so much for your nice comments on my organ playing!! I'm very glad
to hear that you're enjoying my music. : )

Yes, when I can afford it, it will be great to have the 70 available stop
tabs respond to MIDI signals. An electronic labelmaker could probably be
used to relabel the tabs with the new jOrgan stop names.

Greetings,

Timothy

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Allenorganist

2011-06-22 17:27:57 UTC

Permalink

Hi, Dennis,

Thank you very much for your kind words. :)

All the best,

Timothy

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Roy Radford

2011-06-22 20:16:21 UTC

Permalink

Hi, Timothy,

                Actually "new registrations" was a bit misleading. I don't have stops actuated by MIDI signals at present, only pistons. The interference sometimes causes a jump to a random piston which may have a registration completely inappropriate to the job in hand...

   Poeme, by Fibich, doesn't sound too great on a brass band set up for the Marine's Hymn!

      Have fun,

          Roy.

--- On Wed, 22/6/11, Allenorganist <***@aol.com> wrote:

From: Allenorganist <***@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Three-Manual Allen Organ Conversion
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Date: Wednesday, 22 June, 2011, 17:15

Hi, Roy,

Thanks for your input! Fortunately, this console is far away from major
sources of electrical interference.

Wow..."improptu new registrations." Those appliances switching on and off
actually causes random stops to come on? I hope that you'll be able to fix
that unfortunate problem easily.

Greetings,

Timothy

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Patrick Lane

2011-06-23 00:13:28 UTC

Permalink

Glad to hear this! uCapps was my favorite early on. The Artisan text file is
on one hand simple, but capable of configuring the cards in many powerful
ways. Since the number of cards is a variable they need to have some way of
addressing them, as a whole. A blind preset system is also possible with
their configuration files.

Patrick

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick (greenfox) [mailto:***@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 9:31 PM
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Three-Manual Allen Organ Conversion

uCapps uses IDC plugs so no screws, 8 switches and 2 commons in each 10 way
IDC header plug.
uCapps has never needed the customer to do any bootstrapping, this was
always pre-done on purchase of the kit.
uCapps does not and never has required any assembly code uCapps is now
configured by an easy Java program. text file configuration is a thing of
the past.

expensive.

Post by Patrick Lane
Most organs have a power supply. I'm using a massie power supply from
an old Rodgers organ, But Allen consoles also have adequate voltages
and current for Artisan. (they in the US). Artisan is also a parallel
system -- no 8X8 matrixing scheme. Their system can grow with the organ

project.

Post by Patrick Lane
Patrick

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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and ensure content is compliant with Accessibility Checking.
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Roy Radford

2011-06-23 09:42:58 UTC

Permalink

Hi, Geert,

              The idea that you can't hear low notes in a small room is a hardy perennial:

p { margin-bottom: 0.21cm; }a:link { }

http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/45774-32-room-small-hear-frequency-accuratel

       Have fun,

          Roy.

--- On Thu, 23/6/11, orgel jeux <***@gmail.com> wrote:

From: orgel jeux <***@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Three-Manual Allen Organ Conversion
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Date: Thursday, 23 June, 2011, 8:58

I like the trinity church also. Seen Barbara Dennerlein playing on it already??

Concerning bass response: keep in mind that the overall length of the listening room may be a limiting factor in producing some very low frequencies!!

About these conversion kits for the older analog organs: maybe that is a good route, but I also think that it is a diminishing market.

Constructing a simple interface with CMOS switches is really very simple; I use to glue the IC's lying on their back with the pins pointing upwards onto a long small strip of pertinax with 0,1 inch spaced holes in it ( radio shack) and wire everything directly on that board.

As it is all only DC switching, the total layout is non-critical.
The very low power consumption of these CMOS devices makes it ideal to have the power supply tapped from the original instrument also.

Nice work, Timothy, using the electronics of an old keyboard for your pedals. Which samples do you use for the pedals??

Greetings,

Geert

2011/6/23 Allenorganist <***@aol.com>

Hi, Pete,

"I had the feeling that your pedal is already stronger than the rest of the

organ"

The organ currently does seem to be balanced in the room... However, the

pedal division is jOrgan and the manual tone is 30-year-old Allen

technology, so that may be what is causing you to perceive an imbalance.

"Whoa Nellie! Four cabinets?"

Yes, the more cabinets and audio channels there are, the less load is

placed on each speaker, yielding a clearer (not distorted), more realistic

sound. Ideally, each stop should have it's own channel. The

http://www.marshallandogletree.com/index.php/inst/opus1/ Marshall and

Ogletree Opus One installed in Trinity Church Wall Street, NYC actually

comes very close to achieving that ideal. The remarkable en chamade stop has

eight audio channels dedicated to it.

http://youtu.be/O8uRIaKGEoI

http://youtu.be/O8uRIaKGEoI

The first would be a 15" floor cabinet connected to a crossover so that

only the lowest frequencies would be sent to it. The second cabinet would

handle the harmonics of the 10 2/3', 16', and 32' stops. The final two (8"

three-way cabinets) would be on a different audio channel and would handle

all of the pedal stops from 8' up.

Regards,

Timothy

--

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------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Simplify data backup and recovery for your virtual environment with vRanger.

Installation's a snap, and flexible recovery options mean your data is safe,

secure and there when you need it. Data protection magic?

Nope - It's vRanger. Get your free trial download today.

http://p.sf.net/sfu/quest-sfdev2dev

_______________________________________________

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jOrgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net

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-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

orgel jeux

2011-06-23 10:29:55 UTC

Permalink

Pete Theisen

2011-06-23 10:54:06 UTC

Permalink

Post by Allenorganist
Hi, Geert,
The idea that you can't hear low notes in a small room is
http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/45774-32-room-small-hear-frequency-accuratel

--
Regards,

Pete
http://pete-theisen.com/
http://elect-pete-theisen.com/

unknown

1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC

Permalink

--0003255755d6f75c5304a65e9053
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

*It is said that at least 28.5 feet length room is required for the

control room cuz I thought the wave length of 20hz is 56.6 feet

Hi, Geert,
The idea that you can't hear low notes in a small room is a
http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/45774-32-room-small-hear-frequency-accuratel
Have fun,
Roy.
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Three-Manual Allen Organ Conversion
Date: Thursday, 23 June, 2011, 8:58
I like the trinity church also. Seen Barbara Dennerlein playing on it
already??
Concerning bass response: keep in mind that the overall length of the
listening room may be a limiting factor in producing some very low
frequencies!!
About these conversion kits for the older analog organs: maybe that is a
good route, but I also think that it is a diminishing market.
Constructing a simple interface with CMOS switches is really very simple; I
use to glue the IC's lying on their back with the pins pointing upwards onto
a long small strip of pertinax with 0,1 inch spaced holes in it ( radio
shack) and wire everything directly on that board.
As it is all only DC switching, the total layout is non-critical.
The very low power consumption of these CMOS devices makes it ideal to have
the power supply tapped from the original instrument also.
Nice work, Timothy, using the electronics of an old keyboard for your
pedals. Which samples do you use for the pedals??
Greetings,
Geert
Hi, Pete,
"I had the feeling that your pedal is already stronger than the rest of
the
organ"
The organ currently does seem to be balanced in the room... However, the
pedal division is jOrgan and the manual tone is 30-year-old Allen
technology, so that may be what is causing you to perceive an imbalance.
"Whoa Nellie! Four cabinets?"
Yes, the more cabinets and audio channels there are, the less load is
placed on each speaker, yielding a clearer (not distorted), more realistic
sound. Ideally, each stop should have it's own channel. The
http://www.marshallandogletree.com/index.php/inst/opus1/ Marshall and
Ogletree Opus One installed in Trinity Church Wall Street, NYC actually
comes very close to achieving that ideal. The remarkable en chamade stop
has
eight audio channels dedicated to it.
http://youtu.be/O8uRIaKGEoI
http://youtu.be/O8uRIaKGEoI
The first would be a 15" floor cabinet connected to a crossover so that
only the lowest frequencies would be sent to it. The second cabinet would
handle the harmonics of the 10 2/3', 16', and 32' stops. The final two (8"
three-way cabinets) would be on a different audio channel and would handle
all of the pedal stops from 8' up.
Regards,
Timothy
--
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Sent from the jOrgan - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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--0003255755d6f75c5304a65e9053
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <i>It is said that at least 28.5 feet length room is required for the <br>> control room cuz I thought the wave length of 20hz is 56.6 feet <br> <br>That is a myth. If it were true, you wouldn't be able to hear anything below <br>a few hundred Hz in a car! In fact, even a small room like yours can <br>reproduce very low frequencies. However, the *flatness* of the low end <br>response is undoubtedly way off. </i><br><br>Hi Roy,<br><br>I have a lot of evidence and papers on advanced studies on this case.<br>It differs on what peaople think? that are actually low musical tones.......<br><br>Specially in a Volkswagen Golf car with black colour, we can hear - even from the outside - sort of pumping bass tones when driven by? young people. Sometimes I can even detect the roof going in and out.......<br> <br>But when analysed, these sounds only consist of pulse shaped bursts of acoustical energy, giving these people the so much needed assurance.<br><br>We talk here - I hope - about trying to have an acoustic reproduction of other sorts of music material.<br> <br>Greetings,<br><br>Geert<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">2011/6/23 Roy Radford <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:***@yahoo.co.uk">***@yahoo.co.uk</a>></span><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"> <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td style="font:inherit" valign="top">Hi, Geert,<br><br>????????????? The idea that you can't hear low notes in a small room is a hardy perennial:<br><br> <p style="margin-bottom:0cm"><a href="http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/45774-32-room-small-hear-frequency-accuratel" target="_blank">http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/45774-32-room-small-hear-frequency-accuratel</a></p> <p style="margin-bottom:0cm"><br> </p> <br><br>�� Have fun,<br><br>�� Roy.<br><br>--- On <b>Thu, 23/6/11, <span>orgel</span> jeux <i><<a href="mailto:***@gmail.com" target="_blank">***@gmail.com</a>></i></b> wrote:<br><blockquote style="border-left:2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255);margin-left:5px;padding-left:5px"> <br>From: orgel jeux <<a href="mailto:***@gmail.com" target="_blank">***@gmail.com</a>><br>Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Three-Manual Allen Organ Conversion<div class="im"><br>To: <a href="mailto:jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net" target="_blank">jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
</div>Date: Thursday, 23 June, 2011, 8:58<div><div></div><div class="h5"><br><br><div>I like the trinity church also. Seen Barbara Dennerlein playing on it already??<br><br>Concerning bass response: keep in mind that the overall length of the listening room may be a limiting factor in producing some very low frequencies!!<br>

<br>About these conversion kits for the older analog organs: maybe that is a good route, but I also think that it is a diminishing market.<br><br>Constructing a simple interface with CMOS switches is really very simple; I use to glue the IC's lying on their back with the pins pointing upwards onto a long small strip of pertinax with 0,1 inch spaced holes in it ( radio shack) and wire everything directly on that board.<br>

As it is all only DC switching, the total layout is non-critical.<br>The very low power consumption of these CMOS devices makes it ideal to have the power supply tapped from the original instrument also.<br><br>Nice work, Timothy, using the electronics of an old keyboard for your pedals. Which samples do you use for the pedals??<br> <br>Greetings,<br><br>Geert<br><br><div>2011/6/23 Allenorganist <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" href="http://mc/compose?to=***@aol.com" target="_blank">***@aol.com</a>></span><br><blockquote style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);padding-left:1ex">

Hi, Pete,<br>
<div><br>
"I had the feeling that your pedal is already stronger than the rest of the<br>
organ"<br>
<br>
</div> The organ currently does seem to be balanced in the room... However, the<br>
pedal division is jOrgan and the manual tone is 30-year-old Allen<br>
technology, so that may be what is causing you to perceive an imbalance.<br>
<br>
"Whoa Nellie! Four cabinets?"<br>
<br>
Yes, the more cabinets and audio channels there are, the less load is<br>
placed on each speaker, yielding a clearer (not distorted), more realistic<br>
sound. Ideally, each stop should have it's own channel. The<br>
<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.marshallandogletree.com/index.php/inst/opus1/" target="_blank">http://www.marshallandogletree.com/index.php/inst/opus1/</a> Marshall and<br>
Ogletree Opus One installed in Trinity Church Wall Street, NYC actually<br>
comes very close to achieving that ideal. The remarkable en chamade stop has<br>
eight audio channels dedicated to it.<br>
<a rel="nofollow" http://youtu.be/O8uRIaKGEoI http://youtu.be/O8uRIaKGEoI
<a rel="nofollow" http://youtu.be/O8uRIaKGEoI http://youtu.be/O8uRIaKGEoI
The first would be a 15" floor cabinet connected to a crossover so that<br>
only the lowest frequencies would be sent to it. The second cabinet would<br>
handle the harmonics of the 10 2/3', 16', and 32' stops. The final two (8"<br>
three-way cabinets) would be on a different audio channel and would handle<br>
all of the pedal stops from 8' up.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Timothy<br>
<font color="#888888"><br>
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Sent from the jOrgan - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.<br>
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--0003255755d6f75c5304a65e9053--

Roy Radford

2011-06-23 11:01:12 UTC

Permalink

Hi, Geert,

                I would be interested to see your references on this point, which seems to cause eternal controversy. From what I recall of wave theory from taking a degree in Physics ~50 years ago (!) I can't see any logical reason why you shouldn't hear low notes in a small room.

    What WILL happen of course, if the walls are fairly reflective, standing waves will build up and certain precise frequencies may be inaudible at certain precise points in the room (Nodes). Likewise other points (Antinodes) will have a great "boom" at these frequencies. The result will be most uncomfortable to listen to but most low notes WILL be audible in most places.

     Do your references dispute that statement?

        Have fun,

           Roy.

--- On Thu, 23/6/11, orgel jeux <***@gmail.com> wrote:

From: orgel jeux <***@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Three-Manual Allen Organ Conversion
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Date: Thursday, 23 June, 2011, 11:29

It is said that at least 28.5 feet length room is required for the

control room cuz I thought the wave length of 20hz is 56.6 feet

That is a myth. If it were true, you wouldn't be able to hear anything below

a few hundred Hz in a car! In fact, even a small room like yours can

reproduce very low frequencies. However, the *flatness* of the low end

response is undoubtedly way off.

Hi Roy,

I have a lot of evidence and papers on advanced studies on this case.
It differs on what peaople think that are actually low musical tones.......

Specially in a Volkswagen Golf car with black colour, we can hear - even from the outside - sort of pumping bass tones when driven by young people. Sometimes I can even detect the roof going in and out.......

But when analysed, these sounds only consist of pulse shaped bursts of acoustical energy, giving these people the so much needed assurance.

We talk here - I hope - about trying to have an acoustic reproduction of other sorts of music material.

Greetings,

Geert

2011/6/23 Roy Radford <***@yahoo.co.uk>

Hi, Geert,

              The idea that you can't hear low notes in a small room is a hardy perennial:

http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/45774-32-room-small-hear-frequency-accuratel

       Have fun,

          Roy.

--- On Thu, 23/6/11, orgel jeux <***@gmail.com> wrote:

From: orgel jeux <***@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Three-Manual Allen Organ Conversion
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net

Date: Thursday, 23 June, 2011, 8:58

I like the trinity church also. Seen Barbara Dennerlein playing on it already??

Concerning bass response: keep in mind that the overall length of the listening room may be a limiting factor in producing some very low frequencies!!

About these conversion kits for the older analog organs: maybe that is a good route, but I also think that it is a diminishing market.

Constructing a simple interface with CMOS switches is really very simple; I use to glue the IC's lying on their back with the pins pointing upwards onto a long small strip of pertinax with 0,1 inch spaced holes in it ( radio shack) and wire everything directly on that board.

As it is all only DC switching, the total layout is non-critical.
The very low power consumption of these CMOS devices makes it ideal to have the power supply tapped from the original instrument also.

Nice work, Timothy, using the electronics of an old keyboard for your pedals. Which samples do you use for the pedals??

Greetings,

Geert

2011/6/23 Allenorganist <***@aol.com>

Hi, Pete,

"I had the feeling that your pedal is already stronger than the rest of the

organ"

The organ currently does seem to be balanced in the room... However, the

pedal division is jOrgan and the manual tone is 30-year-old Allen

technology, so that may be what is causing you to perceive an imbalance.

"Whoa Nellie! Four cabinets?"

Yes, the more cabinets and audio channels there are, the less load is

placed on each speaker, yielding a clearer (not distorted), more realistic

sound. Ideally, each stop should have it's own channel. The

http://www.marshallandogletree.com/index.php/inst/opus1/ Marshall and

Ogletree Opus One installed in Trinity Church Wall Street, NYC actually

comes very close to achieving that ideal. The remarkable en chamade stop has

eight audio channels dedicated to it.

http://youtu.be/O8uRIaKGEoI

http://youtu.be/O8uRIaKGEoI

The first would be a 15" floor cabinet connected to a crossover so that

only the lowest frequencies would be sent to it. The second cabinet would

handle the harmonics of the 10 2/3', 16', and 32' stops. The final two (8"

three-way cabinets) would be on a different audio channel and would handle

all of the pedal stops from 8' up.

Regards,

Timothy

--

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Allenorganist

2011-06-23 12:07:26 UTC

Permalink

Hi, Roy,

You're right that low frequencies can be heard in small spaces. The main
difference between small and large rooms seems to be that in the large, more
of the low frequencies will have natural resonance, causing them to be
naturally amplified. In small rooms like mine, this lack of resonance can be
reasonably "compensated" for in the voicing of the individual notes. 32' D
(~18 Hz) is the final note that has real resonance in the room. Beyond that
note, I had to amplify the lower notes more than the rest of the 32' octave.
Since 32' D has a wavelength of ~60 ft., the maximum distance that a wave
can travel in the room is ~30 feet. Nevertheless, 32' C, with additional
amplification, is equally as effective as 32' D.
Your point about the nodes and antinodes is true in my organ room. As would
be expected, the best bass response is found in the corners of the room,
where the waves have the longest distance to travel unimpeded. The center is
the weakest. However, when that 15" subwoofer comes down to the floor,
shouldn't the bass response even out slightly?

Regards,

Timothy

--
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Sent from the jOrgan - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Roy Radford

2011-06-23 11:09:22 UTC

Permalink

   Hi, Pete,

                 Does the effect depend critically on where you and/or the loudspeakers are placed? (See my reply to Geert.)

      In general, lots of irregular-shaped objects like tables, chairs etc tend to reduce standing wave effects but in my experience they don't have much effect at very low frequencies. Major irregularities like drop or sloping ceilings seem more effective, I get major "booms" around low 'C' in the living room but much less in the garage, which has an apex roof.

       Have fun,

            Roy.

--- On Thu, 23/6/11, Pete Theisen <***@verizon.net> wrote:

From: Pete Theisen <***@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Three-Manual Allen Organ Conversion
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Date: Thursday, 23 June, 2011, 11:54

Post by Allenorganist
Hi, Geert,
The idea that you can't hear low notes in a small room is
http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/45774-32-room-small-hear-frequency-accuratel

--
Regards,

Pete
http://pete-theisen.com/
http://elect-pete-theisen.com/

Pete Theisen

2011-06-23 11:22:36 UTC

Permalink

Post by Allenorganist
Hi, Pete,
Does the effect depend critically on where you and/or
the loudspeakers are placed? (See my reply to Geert.)
In general, lots of irregular-shaped objects like tables, chairs
etc tend to reduce standing wave effects but in my experience they don't
have much effect at very low frequencies. Major irregularities like drop
or sloping ceilings seem more effective, I get major "booms" around low
'C' in the living room but much less in the garage, which has an apex roof.

Hi Roy,

Until recently I had a really good stereo system in here with two large,
excellent speakers. I recall perfect response over the full spectrum of
organ music.

Of course, there is all kinds of stuff in here, it being a studio
apartment. No standing waves, no nodes, no dead spots.

--
Regards,

Pete
http://pete-theisen.com/
http://elect-pete-theisen.com/

orgel jeux

2011-06-23 11:33:30 UTC

Permalink

Aah, now I understand why you are in the garage, Roy!

I use the Tannoy TS-12 subwoofer. At first I thought that it was not giving
any output, but that is because it is very much un-coloured, so you will
hear only the deepest freqs.

I think you are right about not too regular spaces. its also a bit
troublesome, that the materials that are effective in surpressing
reflections, are not very effective at low freqs.

As this also counts for shielding the sound from the neighbours, I most of
the time play on headphones, which also compensates for my hearing
degradation.......

I know of a fellow who has his speakeers mounted in the ceiling. and above
that there is a big loft with pointed roof. So he has no internal
reflections off a tone cabinet.......

About the car-subwoofers: they actually cannot reproduce sustained
sinewaves at very low frqs, due to the construction of the units itself,
plus the poor tone cabinets, and their "bass reproduction" purely relies on
this psycho-acoustic phenomenon of the pumped air pulses giving this
impression when playing pop-music. thats also the reason why you never see a
pop-group using bowed string bass,.......:-)

Greetings,

Geert

Geert

Post by Allenorganist
Hi, Pete,
Does the effect depend critically on where you and/or the
loudspeakers are placed? (See my reply to Geert.)
In general, lots of irregular-shaped objects like tables, chairs etc
tend to reduce standing wave effects but in my experience they don't have
much effect at very low frequencies. Major irregularities like drop or
sloping ceilings seem more effective, I get major "booms" around low 'C' in
the living room but much less in the garage, which has an apex roof.
Have fun,
Roy.
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Three-Manual Allen Organ Conversion
Date: Thursday, 23 June, 2011, 11:54

Post by Allenorganist
Hi, Geert,
The idea that you can't hear low notes in a small room is

http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/45774-32-room-small-hear-frequency-accuratel
Hi Roy,
I guess my room must be ideal for the tones in Timothy's video because
his pedal really dominated the other material. The room is 12.5 feet by
17.5 feet by 8 feet high.
Or maybe it is all the "bass traps" I have - the bed, the desk, the
dresser, the chairs . . .
I was listening with some middle-of-the-road computer speakers, "Accent"
http://www.shopping.com/Cyber-Acoustics-CA-3001/info
--
Regards,
Pete
http://pete-theisen.com/
http://elect-pete-theisen.com/
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Roy Radford

2011-06-23 12:00:37 UTC

Permalink

Hi, Geert,

                "Aah, now I understand why you are in the garage, Roy!"...

   Yes, that, and the fact that it is entirely my domain... I can festoon the place with cables ad lib, nail things to walls and generally knock the place about in ways which The Management would certainly not approve of in the living-room!

     I agree that the sort of loudspeakers used in cars would never meet our standards for organ use but, once again, there is no absolute reason why a small speaker can't reproduce low notes, it just means the cone has to move further, ~4 times as far for half the diameter. Of course, in practice, maintaining linearity over very long throws is a problem, as is the stiffness caused by the small enclosure. As you say, having the rear of the speaker open to the sky solves THAT part of the problem.

     Have fun,

         Roy.

--- On Thu, 23/6/11, orgel jeux <***@gmail.com> wrote:

From: orgel jeux <***@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Low notes in small rooms, was Three-Manual Allen Organ Conversion
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Date: Thursday, 23 June, 2011, 12:33

Aah, now I understand why you are in the garage, Roy!

I use the Tannoy TS-12 subwoofer. At first I thought that it was not giving any output, but that is because it is very much un-coloured, so you will hear only the deepest freqs.

I think you are right about not too regular spaces. its also a bit troublesome, that the materials that are effective in surpressing reflections, are not very effective at low freqs.

As this also counts for shielding the sound from the neighbours, I most of the time play on headphones, which also compensates for my hearing degradation.......

I know of a fellow who has his speakeers mounted in the ceiling. and above that there is a big loft with pointed roof. So he has no internal reflections off a tone cabinet.......

About the car-subwoofers: they actually cannot reproduce sustained sinewaves at very low frqs, due to the construction of the units itself, plus the poor tone cabinets, and their "bass reproduction" purely relies on this psycho-acoustic phenomenon of the pumped air pulses giving this impression when playing pop-music. thats also the reason why you never see a pop-group using bowed string bass,.......:-)

Greetings,

Geert

Geert

2011/6/23 Roy Radford <***@yahoo.co.uk>

   Hi, Pete,

                 Does the effect depend critically on where you and/or the loudspeakers are placed? (See my reply to Geert.)

      In general, lots of irregular-shaped objects like tables, chairs etc tend to reduce standing wave effects but in my experience they don't have much effect at very low frequencies. Major irregularities like drop or sloping ceilings seem more effective, I get major "booms" around low 'C' in the living room but much less in the garage, which has an apex roof.

       Have fun,

            Roy.

--- On Thu, 23/6/11, Pete Theisen <***@verizon.net>
wrote:

From: Pete Theisen <***@verizon.net>

Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Three-Manual Allen Organ Conversion
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Date: Thursday, 23 June, 2011, 11:54

Post by Allenorganist
Hi, Geert,
The idea that you can't hear low notes in a small room is
http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/45774-32-room-small-hear-frequency-accuratel

Hi Roy,

I guess my room must be ideal for the tones in Timothy's video because
his pedal really dominated the other material. The room is 12.5 feet by
17.5 feet by 8 feet high.

Or maybe
it is all the "bass traps" I have - the bed, the desk, the
dresser, the chairs . . .

I was listening with some middle-of-the-road computer speakers, "Accent"
brand, similar to these:

http://www.shopping.com/Cyber-Acoustics-CA-3001/info
--
Regards,

Pete
http://pete-theisen.com/

http://elect-pete-theisen.com/

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