Discussion:
[jOrgan-user] 2 Computer Setup
drwilx
2009-03-17 23:37:57 UTC
Permalink
Hi All,

The next step in my organ project is to use two computers each running a
subset of an existing disposition whereby subset one is controlled by two
keyboards and subset two is controlled by a third keyboard and the pedal.
These two computers would each have their own touch sensitive flat screen
controlling them. Identical MIDI messages can be sent to both computers
simultaneously even though some messages may only be appropriate for one or
the other computer.

The goal is to have the accompaniment (choir) and pedal controlled by the
left screen and the Great and Solo (swell) manuals controlled by the right
screen. I will have two identical HP pc’s running at about 2.4 Ghz with 2 Gb
ram running xp home version. I currently have the target dispositions
running on one of these machines.

My question is this: can I have a disposition with two consoles – one
console for the great and solo and one console for the accompaniment and
pedal with the couplers, trems, memory pistons, and memory bank working as
if it was all one big disposition no matter which console is being
controlled? The two console disposition would be installed on each of the
computers, one console being used in computer one and the second console
being used in computer two.

I know I can do the above using different dispositions on each computer, but
I want to be able to press a general piston (under a keyboard) and have it
affect the entire organ. Also coupling between the great and accomp (choir)
would need some integration between the two systems.

If someone has done something like this or has thought about doing something
like this, I would gratefully appreciate some advice.

Regards,

Dennis
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Paul Kealy
2009-03-18 01:20:53 UTC
Permalink
Dennis,

Fellow-poster Marc-Paul has pushed the envelope on this
one in a way that can only be described as "incredible."
He has taken the potential of multiple computers and
wireless connectivity to a whole new level.

Check the archives for his work - It is amazing.
Perhaps he will respond here.

PK
TheatreOrgans.com/StentorVox

Dennis wrote:
<snip>
The next step in my organ project is to use two computers...
If someone has done something like this or has thought about
doing something like this, I would gratefully appreciate
some advice.
<snip>
M***@aol.com
2009-03-18 02:35:54 UTC
Permalink
Hi Dennis...
...my plans are similar to yours... however I am going
to try identical dispositions on two of three computers that are networked.

My setup is 8 xfi extreme music cards across three networked computers.
Each card has a single stereo output. I use MusicLabs software to access the
soundfonts in "remote" computers the same as local computer. jOrgan controls
all of it without problem.

I have another computer ahead of the main jOrgan computer that runs Sonar to
control and record the midi stream.

Two identical dispositions would respond to the piston data and expression
the same... that's why I want to give it a try.

Or I could just control all of it with one as I am now... the advantage is
the ease of recording and playback. I frequently play the digital piano and
jOrgan disposition together... the midi recording computer makes that easy
enough.

I've discovered by experimentation that the min. sys. req. for smooth
operation is 2ghz P4 512meg ram.

Kindest Regards
Marc-Paul
**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
steps!
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%3D62%26bcd%3DMarchfooterNO62)
orgel jeux
2009-03-18 07:26:48 UTC
Permalink
Hi Marc-Paul and Dennis,

Interesting things! multiple pc setups. I think this can be very beautiful
if one has a very large sound-reproduction-room or should I say hall?
because then the combined power of all the ( 8 or so?) stereo channels, and
the possibility of physical spreading of the reproducers will add to the
overall impression of the organ very much. I asume this is more or less a
professional setup like the organ in Trinity Church NY.........

For us simple people though it is a different story, as the smaller the
listening room, the more difficult it is to get a proper balance between
direct and reflected acoustical waves inside the room, and I am myself -
after a lot of trials - not that convinced; my goal lies more in faithful
"musical" amplification by means of quality tube amplifiers.

Concerning playing and recording at the same time: I accomplish this very
well within 1 PC, running Steinberg's Wavelab together with Nuendo ( or
Cubase of course), and Jorgan all at the same time, connecting via
midi-yoke. The piano is also connected; 1 or more extra Midi-streams is
nothing for a modern pc.

For connecting pistons that should work on both PC's, one can also use very
simple hardware that doubles the Midi-out connector of the used
Midi-encoder, costs around 5 dollar or so, and from there connect to both
Midi-ins on the 2 PC's.

Happy developing,

Geert
Post by M***@aol.com
Hi Dennis...
...my plans are similar to yours... however I am going
to try identical dispositions on two of three computers that are networked.
My setup is 8 xfi extreme music cards across three networked computers.
Each card has a single stereo output. I use MusicLabs software to access
the soundfonts in "remote" computers the same as local computer. jOrgan
controls all of it without problem.
I have another computer ahead of the main jOrgan computer that runs Sonar
to control and record the midi stream.
Two identical dispositions would respond to the piston data and expression
the same... that's why I want to give it a try.
Or I could just control all of it with one as I am now... the advantage is
the ease of recording and playback. I frequently play the digital piano and
jOrgan disposition together... the midi recording computer makes that easy
enough.
I've discovered by experimentation that the min. sys. req. for smooth
operation is 2ghz P4 512meg ram.
Kindest Regards
Marc-Paul
------------------------------
*A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!<http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1219850974x1201371016/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID%3D62%26bcd%3DMarchfooterNO62>
*
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WILLIAM BURD
2009-03-18 12:44:01 UTC
Permalink
Dennis

As Marc-Paul mentioned, using a midi over LAN link does allow for multiple computers to handle dispositions. Musiclabs midi over LAN runs around $130 to $170 for a two computer license. However, what I used to get two computers going using jOrgan and Miditzer was ethernetmidi, available at http://www.linuxsampler.org/ethernetmidi/ It only works on Windows and it cost zero dollars. The latency was near zero.

So, for your research and experimental stages you might use the free version. If you find that it all works as you hope then you can step it up to a "professional" version like Musiclabs.

Bill

From: ***@aol.com
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 22:35:54 -0400
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] 2 Computer Setup








Hi Dennis...

...my plans are similar to yours... however I am going to try identical
dispositions on two of three computers that are networked.

My setup is 8 xfi extreme music cards across three networked
computers. Each card has a single stereo output. I use MusicLabs
software to access the soundfonts in "remote" computers the same as local
computer. jOrgan controls all of it without problem.

I have another computer ahead of the main jOrgan computer that runs Sonar
to control and record the midi stream.

Two identical dispositions would respond to the piston data and expression
the same... that's why I want to give it a try.

Or I could just control all of it with one as I am now... the advantage is
the ease of recording and playback. I frequently play the digital piano
and jOrgan disposition together... the midi recording computer makes that easy
enough.

I've discovered by experimentation that the min. sys. req. for smooth
operation is 2ghz P4 512meg ram.

Kindest Regards
Marc-Paul
A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live™ Groups: Create an online spot for your favorite groups to meet.
http://windowslive.com/online/groups?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_groups_032009
Graham Goode
2009-03-18 12:50:11 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

I got EthernetMIDI from http://www.linuxsampler.org/ethernetmidi/ to
work under WINE in Linux while experimenting with it some while ago,
so theoretically, through WINE, it will work in Mac OS-X as well...
I'm not using it currently so would have to do more experimenting to
get it working again.
GrahamG
Lynn Walls
2009-03-18 14:02:57 UTC
Permalink
Graham,

I would be very interested in knowing the outcome of your, or anyone's,
experiences with MIDI over ethernet (TCP/IP).

I tried out several software MIDI-over-ethernet solutions a few years ago
and ALL were ultimately unsatisfactory for VTPO playing, mainly for the
following reasons:

1. Fast playing, using both hands, feet and large chords with large
organ registrations creates a MASSIVE number of highly time-dependent
MIDI messages that have to flow from the jOrgan/MidiTzer/MyOrgan relay
over the internet to the sound producing synth in the remote computer.
In this situation, "clumps" and "stalls" in the rendered audio are
not uncommon.

2. Unlike audio and video, MIDI cannot tolerate random transmission
loss -- at all!. The loss of a single "Note-Off" message will
result in a completely intolerable "cipher". The loss of a single
"progChg" or other controlling MIDI message can result in total
failure to engage a piston or and individual stop. [The anti-cipher
(i.e., the loss of a Note-On message) is just as common as the cipher,
or lost Note-Off -- but most people don't seem to notice THEM!]
Therefore, the UDP/IP protocol (which has no flow control, packet
delivery sequence control, or data-received acknowledgment control)
is completely unreliable and unacceptable for MIDI message data
transmission. On the other hand, the TCP/IP ethernet protocol,
which DOES handle the UDP shortcomings listed above, has the
annoying characteristic of frequently "stalling" the very time
dependent nature of MIDI data flow while it dutifully
resends any data packets that have become corrupted or dropped
whenever there is an instance of normal network congestion or
other normal occasions of IP data packet loss.

I would imagine that UDP/IP could be made to work on a DEDICATED Ethernet
link, since its packet loss rate should really not be any worse than that
of MIDI data being transmitted over a native MIDI serial channel at the
standard 38.4 kbps rate.

Lynn
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Graham Goode
I got EthernetMIDI from http://www.linuxsampler.org/ethernetmidi/ to
work under WINE in Linux while experimenting with it some while ago,
so theoretically, through WINE, it will work in Mac OS-X as well...
I'm not using it currently so would have to do more experimenting to
get it working again.
Jacques LEVY
2009-03-18 14:28:12 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

I confirm, my experience with ethernet (MIDI2NET / NET2MIDI) was good enough
for making some tests but unsastisfactory for a normal playing.

I have very good results using an USB connection :
On a first PC, I have an EDIROL UM-2EX
On each of the 2 other PC, I use an EDIROL UM-1EX that I connect to the
2EX.

Jacques

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Walls" <***@comcast.net>
To: <jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 3:02 PM
Subject: [jOrgan-user] Ethernet MIDI, was: 2 Computer Setup
Post by Lynn Walls
Graham,
I would be very interested in knowing the outcome of your, or anyone's,
experiences with MIDI over ethernet (TCP/IP).
I tried out several software MIDI-over-ethernet solutions a few years ago
and ALL were ultimately unsatisfactory for VTPO playing, mainly for the
1. Fast playing, using both hands, feet and large chords with large
organ registrations creates a MASSIVE number of highly time-dependent
MIDI messages that have to flow from the jOrgan/MidiTzer/MyOrgan relay
over the internet to the sound producing synth in the remote computer.
In this situation, "clumps" and "stalls" in the rendered audio are
not uncommon.
2. Unlike audio and video, MIDI cannot tolerate random transmission
loss -- at all!. The loss of a single "Note-Off" message will
result in a completely intolerable "cipher". The loss of a single
"progChg" or other controlling MIDI message can result in total
failure to engage a piston or and individual stop. [The anti-cipher
(i.e., the loss of a Note-On message) is just as common as the cipher,
or lost Note-Off -- but most people don't seem to notice THEM!]
Therefore, the UDP/IP protocol (which has no flow control, packet
delivery sequence control, or data-received acknowledgment control)
is completely unreliable and unacceptable for MIDI message data
transmission. On the other hand, the TCP/IP ethernet protocol,
which DOES handle the UDP shortcomings listed above, has the
annoying characteristic of frequently "stalling" the very time
dependent nature of MIDI data flow while it dutifully
resends any data packets that have become corrupted or dropped
whenever there is an instance of normal network congestion or
other normal occasions of IP data packet loss.
I would imagine that UDP/IP could be made to work on a DEDICATED Ethernet
link, since its packet loss rate should really not be any worse than that
of MIDI data being transmitted over a native MIDI serial channel at the
standard 38.4 kbps rate.
Lynn
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Graham Goode
I got EthernetMIDI from http://www.linuxsampler.org/ethernetmidi/ to
work under WINE in Linux while experimenting with it some while ago,
so theoretically, through WINE, it will work in Mac OS-X as well...
I'm not using it currently so would have to do more experimenting to
get it working again.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM) are
powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and
easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development
software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging.
Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com
_______________________________________________
jOrgan-user mailing list
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orgel jeux
2009-03-18 14:37:19 UTC
Permalink
Same over here using Edirol UM-880 and for the second pc Midisport 2x2.
When operating the swells the midi-stream also expands a lot. I like a wired
solution that is reliable, and also uses no extra software.
But you ICT-guys of course like to do it modern-style !

success,

Geert
Post by Jacques LEVY
Hi,
I confirm, my experience with ethernet (MIDI2NET / NET2MIDI) was good enough
for making some tests but unsastisfactory for a normal playing.
On a first PC, I have an EDIROL UM-2EX
On each of the 2 other PC, I use an EDIROL UM-1EX that I connect to the
2EX.
Jacques
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 3:02 PM
Subject: [jOrgan-user] Ethernet MIDI, was: 2 Computer Setup
Post by Lynn Walls
Graham,
I would be very interested in knowing the outcome of your, or anyone's,
experiences with MIDI over ethernet (TCP/IP).
I tried out several software MIDI-over-ethernet solutions a few years ago
and ALL were ultimately unsatisfactory for VTPO playing, mainly for the
1. Fast playing, using both hands, feet and large chords with large
organ registrations creates a MASSIVE number of highly time-dependent
MIDI messages that have to flow from the jOrgan/MidiTzer/MyOrgan
relay
Post by Lynn Walls
over the internet to the sound producing synth in the remote
computer.
Post by Lynn Walls
In this situation, "clumps" and "stalls" in the rendered audio are
not uncommon.
2. Unlike audio and video, MIDI cannot tolerate random transmission
loss -- at all!. The loss of a single "Note-Off" message will
result in a completely intolerable "cipher". The loss of a single
"progChg" or other controlling MIDI message can result in total
failure to engage a piston or and individual stop. [The anti-cipher
(i.e., the loss of a Note-On message) is just as common as the
cipher,
Post by Lynn Walls
or lost Note-Off -- but most people don't seem to notice THEM!]
Therefore, the UDP/IP protocol (which has no flow control, packet
delivery sequence control, or data-received acknowledgment control)
is completely unreliable and unacceptable for MIDI message data
transmission. On the other hand, the TCP/IP ethernet protocol,
which DOES handle the UDP shortcomings listed above, has the
annoying characteristic of frequently "stalling" the very time
dependent nature of MIDI data flow while it dutifully
resends any data packets that have become corrupted or dropped
whenever there is an instance of normal network congestion or
other normal occasions of IP data packet loss.
I would imagine that UDP/IP could be made to work on a DEDICATED Ethernet
link, since its packet loss rate should really not be any worse than that
of MIDI data being transmitted over a native MIDI serial channel at the
standard 38.4 kbps rate.
Lynn
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Graham Goode
I got EthernetMIDI from http://www.linuxsampler.org/ethernetmidi/ to
work under WINE in Linux while experimenting with it some while ago,
so theoretically, through WINE, it will work in Mac OS-X as well...
I'm not using it currently so would have to do more experimenting to
get it working again.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Lynn Walls
Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM) are
powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and
easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based
development
Post by Lynn Walls
software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging.
Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com
_______________________________________________
jOrgan-user mailing list
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jorgan-user
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM) are
powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and
easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development
software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging.
Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com
_______________________________________________
jOrgan-user mailing list
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M***@aol.com
2009-03-18 14:37:17 UTC
Permalink
Greetings Bill and all...
...I used ethernetmidi for some time and
it works well. I have 4 computers networked with MidiOverLan and multiple
channels of information for multiple soundfont banks. (even wireless works) Yes
it costs a few $$... but works flawlessly and does not have to be "started".

I am looking for the sound of a larger organ in a smaller space. So
multiple channels and multiple speaker systems is how I achieve that. With
soundblaster cards the same soundfont can be loaded in multiple locations without any
memory "expense" other than the original. A rank can be slightly de-tuned
or a string can be "unde" easly. In my Theatre disposition each trem has
been adjusted individually and a trem and non-trem voice appear side by side.
Its a dream come true.

As some say... "Have fun"
Marc-Paul


In a message dated 3/18/2009 7:46:58 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
***@hotmail.com writes:

Dennis

As Marc-Paul mentioned, using a midi over LAN link does allow for multiple
computers to handle dispositions. Musiclabs midi over LAN runs around $130 to
$170 for a two computer license. However, what I used to get two computers
going using jOrgan and Miditzer was ethernetmidi, available at
_http://www.linuxsampler.org/ethernetmidi/_ (http://www.linuxsampler.org/ethernetmidi/) It
only works on Windows and it cost zero dollars. The latency was near zero.

So, for your research and experimental stages you might use the free
version. If you find that it all works as you hope then you can step it up to a
"professional" version like Musiclabs.

Bill


____________________________________
From: ***@aol.com
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 22:35:54 -0400
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] 2 Computer Setup

Hi Dennis...
....my plans are similar to yours... however I am going
to try identical dispositions on two of three computers that are networked.

My setup is 8 xfi extreme music cards across three networked computers.
Each card has a single stereo output. I use MusicLabs software to access the
soundfonts in "remote" computers the same as local computer. jOrgan controls
all of it without problem.

I have another computer ahead of the main jOrgan computer that runs Sonar to
control and record the midi stream.

Two identical dispositions would respond to the piston data and expression
the same... that's why I want to give it a try.

Or I could just control all of it with one as I am now... the advantage is
the ease of recording and playback. I frequently play the digital piano and
jOrgan disposition together... the midi recording computer makes that easy
enough.

I've discovered by experimentation that the min. sys. req. for smooth
operation is 2ghz P4 512meg ram.

Kindest Regards
Marc-Paul


____________________________________
A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. _See yours in just 2 easy steps!_
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1219850974x1201371016/aol?redir=http://www.
freecreditreport..com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=MarchfooterNO62)



____________________________________
Windows Live™ Groups: Create an online spot for your favorite groups to meet.
_Check it out._
(http://windowslive.com/online/groups?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_groups_032009) =

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM) are
powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and
easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development
software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging.
Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com

_______________________________________________
jOrgan-user mailing list
jOrgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jorgan-user


**************Great Deals on Dell 15" Laptops - Starting at $479
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orgel jeux
2009-03-18 14:41:53 UTC
Permalink
Marc-Paul,

Wish I could hear that !!

Do you think this can also work for a classical organ??
And what about the neighbours?? -:)
Not to speak about the structural damage to the house that can be caused !!

greetings,

Geert
Post by M***@aol.com
Greetings Bill and all...
...I used ethernetmidi for some time and
it works well. I have 4 computers networked with MidiOverLan and multiple
channels of information for multiple soundfont banks. (even wireless works)
Yes it costs a few $$... but works flawlessly and does not have to be
"started".
I am looking for the sound of a larger organ in a smaller space. So
multiple channels and multiple speaker systems is how I achieve that. With
soundblaster cards the same soundfont can be loaded in multiple locations
without any memory "expense" other than the original. A rank can be
slightly de-tuned or a string can be "unde" easly. In my Theatre
disposition each trem has been adjusted individually and a trem and non-trem
voice appear side by side. Its a dream come true.
As some say... "Have fun"
Marc-Paul
In a message dated 3/18/2009 7:46:58 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
Dennis
As Marc-Paul mentioned, using a midi over LAN link does allow for multiple
computers to handle dispositions. Musiclabs midi over LAN runs around $130
to $170 for a two computer license. However, what I used to get two
computers going using jOrgan and Miditzer was *ethernetmidi*, available at
http://www.linuxsampler.org/ethernetmidi/ It only works on Windows and it
cost zero dollars. The latency was near zero.
So, for your research and experimental stages you might use the free
version. If you find that it all works as you hope then you can step it up
to a "professional" version like Musiclabs.
Bill
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 22:35:54 -0400
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] 2 Computer Setup
Hi Dennis...
....my plans are similar to yours... however I am going
to try identical dispositions on two of three computers that are networked.
My setup is 8 xfi extreme music cards across three networked computers.
Each card has a single stereo output. I use MusicLabs software to access
the soundfonts in "remote" computers the same as local computer. jOrgan
controls all of it without problem.
I have another computer ahead of the main jOrgan computer that runs Sonar
to control and record the midi stream.
Two identical dispositions would respond to the piston data and expression
the same... that's why I want to give it a try.
Or I could just control all of it with one as I am now... the advantage is
the ease of recording and playback. I frequently play the digital piano and
jOrgan disposition together... the midi recording computer makes that easy
enough.
I've discovered by experimentation that the min. sys. req. for smooth
operation is 2ghz P4 512meg ram.
Kindest Regards
Marc-Paul
------------------------------
*A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!<http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1219850974x1201371016/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport..com/pm/default.aspx?sc%3D668072%26hmpgID%3D62%26bcd%3DMarchfooterNO62>
*
------------------------------
Windows Live™ Groups: Create an online spot for your favorite groups to
meet. Check it out.<http://windowslive.com/online/groups?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_groups_032009>=
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM) are
powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and
easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development
software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging.
Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com
_______________________________________________
jOrgan-user mailing list
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jorgan-user
------------------------------
Great Deals on Dell 15" Laptops - Starting at $479<http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1220433363x1201394532/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B212935224%3B34245239%3Bb>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM) are
powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and
easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development
software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging.
Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com
_______________________________________________
jOrgan-user mailing list
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drwilx
2009-03-18 15:24:27 UTC
Permalink
Hi all,

Let me return to the initial question: can two consoles be used to enable
the couplers and general pistons to work throughout the organ even though
only one console with only the tabs and controls for half the organ is
visible on the screen? If someone has done this, is there an example I can
study?

Second point is that I do not intend to use ethernet to send the midi
signals to the computers. I can send identical midi messages simultaneously
to two computers via usb- The two computers will not be connected to each
other in any way. With the two computers being identical the processing of
the midi information should be close enough in timing.

Kind Regards,

Dennis
--
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/2-Computer-Setup-tp22570169p22581272.html
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WILLIAM BURD
2009-03-18 15:51:49 UTC
Permalink
Dennis
WILLIAM BURD
2009-03-18 19:09:26 UTC
Permalink
Guys

In an effort to address more of Dennis' question, I added a second monitor to my setup; however, I find that I have a choice of /display0 or /display1 but, not both. Does jOrgan have any provision to split the disposition over two monitors?

I understand that Dennis wants to use two separate disposition but it is a nature progression to use two monitors on one disposition if at all possible.


Bill
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 08:24:27 -0700
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] 2 Computer Setup
Hi all,
Let me return to the initial question: can two consoles be used to enable
the couplers and general pistons to work throughout the organ even though
only one console with only the tabs and controls for half the organ is
visible on the screen? If someone has done this, is there an example I can
study?
Second point is that I do not intend to use ethernet to send the midi
signals to the computers. I can send identical midi messages simultaneously
to two computers via usb- The two computers will not be connected to each
other in any way. With the two computers being identical the processing of
the midi information should be close enough in timing.
Kind Regards,
Dennis
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Sven Meier
2009-03-18 21:09:54 UTC
Permalink
Hi Bill,

you can create two Console elements in your disposition, one using
/display0 and the other /display1.

Regards

Sven
Post by WILLIAM BURD
Guys
In an effort to address more of Dennis' question, I added a second
monitor to my setup; however, I find that I have a choice of /display0
or /display1 but, not both. Does jOrgan have any provision to split
the disposition over two monitors?
I understand that Dennis wants to use two separate disposition but it
is a nature progression to use two monitors on one disposition if at
all possible.
Bill
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 08:24:27 -0700
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] 2 Computer Setup
Hi all,
Let me return to the initial question: can two consoles be used to
enable
the couplers and general pistons to work throughout the organ even
though
only one console with only the tabs and controls for half the organ is
visible on the screen? If someone has done this, is there an example
I can
study?
Second point is that I do not intend to use ethernet to send the midi
signals to the computers. I can send identical midi messages
simultaneously
to two computers via usb- The two computers will not be connected to
each
other in any way. With the two computers being identical the
processing of
the midi information should be close enough in timing.
Kind Regards,
Dennis
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WILLIAM BURD
2009-03-18 21:17:57 UTC
Permalink
Sven

Thank you for the information. I will give that a try. It will take some growing pain for me since I am quite a newbi with disposition preparation. I have only been at this since jOrgan 2.3 and have only worked on about 50 different dispositions, but, I am sure anxious to get this figured out.

Guys, any help in getting this working would be appreciated. Especially Lynn!

Thank you

Bill
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 22:09:54 +0100
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] 2 Computer Setup
Hi Bill,
you can create two Console elements in your disposition, one using
/display0 and the other /display1.
Regards
Sven
Post by WILLIAM BURD
Guys
In an effort to address more of Dennis' question, I added a second
monitor to my setup; however, I find that I have a choice of /display0
or /display1 but, not both. Does jOrgan have any provision to split
the disposition over two monitors?
I understand that Dennis wants to use two separate disposition but it
is a nature progression to use two monitors on one disposition if at
all possible.
Bill
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ElPajaro
2009-03-20 17:58:29 UTC
Permalink
Guys

Just a peek at my efforts in splitting the console onto 2 monitors. On the
Left we have the Acomp and Pedals and on the right the Solo and Great
Manuals: All features work just as before I did the split. Also, all
couplers do what couplers do regardless of location of the two monitors:



Loading Image...


Bill
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drwilx
2009-03-18 21:47:44 UTC
Permalink
Hi Bill,

you can create two Console elements in your disposition, one using
/display0 and the other /display1.

Regards

Sven

OK, I'm getting closer - using two console elements can I have couplers and
general pistons operating from say display0 that effects the entire organ as
if the two console elements were combined into one. If this is doable then I
will run two identical dispositions, one on computer0 using console display0
and the second disposition on computer1 using console display1. Both
computers would be sent identical midi messages at the same time from the
keyboards, swell pedals, and pistons.

I see no reason why this would not work, but I wanted to get some feedback
from the experts before I spend a bunch of time splitting the dispositions
in two.

Kind Regards,

Dennis
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Lynn Walls
2009-03-18 22:27:28 UTC
Permalink
Minor correction. If computer1 only has one physical monitor, then that
monitor will be known as "display0" -- not "display1". There will only
be a "display1" on a computer than has more than one monitor defined and
connected.

Although you may have TWO consoles (console0 and console1) defined in
that common disposition that you intend to run on both computers
(computer0 and computer1), you will have to actually configure them
differently. On computer0 you will have to specify that console0 be
configured for display0 and console1 configured for NO display, and on
computer1 you will have to specify that console1 be configured for
display0 and console0 configured to have NO display.

CLW
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Sven Meier
Hi Bill,
you can create two Console elements in your disposition, one using
/display0 and the other /display1.
Regards
Sven
OK, I'm getting closer - using two console elements can I have couplers and
general pistons operating from say display0 that effects the entire organ as
if the two console elements were combined into one. If this is doable then I
will run two identical dispositions, one on computer0 using console display0
and the second disposition on computer1 using console display1. Both
computers would be sent identical midi messages at the same time from the
keyboards, swell pedals, and pistons.
I see no reason why this would not work, but I wanted to get some feedback
from the experts before I spend a bunch of time splitting the dispositions
in two.
Kind Regards,
Dennis
ElPajaro
2009-03-18 22:36:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn Walls
Minor correction. If computer1 only has one physical monitor, then that
monitor will be known as "display0" -- not "display1". There will only
be a "display1" on a computer than has more than one monitor defined and
connected.
Although you may have TWO consoles (console0 and console1) defined in
that common disposition that you intend to run on both computers
(computer0 and computer1), you will have to actually configure them
differently. On computer0 you will have to specify that console0 be
configured for display0 and console1 configured for NO display, and on
computer1 you will have to specify that console1 be configured for
display0 and console0 configured to have NO display.
CLW
-------------------------------------------------------------------
OK, Lynn

Now that I have blood squirting out of both eyes, what about two monitors on
one computer. Console0 and Console1 on the same box. One on the left for
Pedals and Accomp, and one on the right for Solo and Great! Now, the one on
the left would talk to computer 1 for the sound cards via the Midi to USB
cable as I described earlier and the one on the right would talk to the
sound cards on the local computer.

How about that?

Bill
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Lynn Walls
2009-03-18 23:08:25 UTC
Permalink
Bill,

The Consoles, 0 or 1, have no control over whether ranks are played on
computer 1 via a MIDI to USB cable or on computer 0 locally.

That routing is entirely defined by the Sound Source elements referenced
by the Rank elements affected.

For example, if you only have one Tibia rank, a Tibia stop appearing on
the Great console and a Tibia stop appearing on the Accomp console would
both ALWAYS play from the computer, either 0 or 1, to which the single
Tibia Rank's Sound Source element is directed.

And so forth, for all the Ranks.

The console displays themselves are simply not the mode for routing to
the computers.

Lynn
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by ElPajaro
Now that I have blood squirting out of both eyes, what about two monitors on
one computer. Console0 and Console1 on the same box. One on the left for
Pedals and Accomp, and one on the right for Solo and Great! Now, the one on
the left would talk to computer 1 for the sound cards via the Midi to USB
cable as I described earlier and the one on the right would talk to the
sound cards on the local computer.
How about that?
WILLIAM BURD
2009-03-18 23:28:07 UTC
Permalink
Lynn

Got it, thank you for the clarification. I see the light!

That is why I always go to you for the "rest of the story"!

Thank you,

Bill
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 19:08:25 -0400
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] 2 Computer Setup
Bill,
The Consoles, 0 or 1, have no control over whether ranks are played on
computer 1 via a MIDI to USB cable or on computer 0 locally.
That routing is entirely defined by the Sound Source elements referenced
by the Rank elements affected.
For example, if you only have one Tibia rank, a Tibia stop appearing on
the Great console and a Tibia stop appearing on the Accomp console would
both ALWAYS play from the computer, either 0 or 1, to which the single
Tibia Rank's Sound Source element is directed.
And so forth, for all the Ranks.
The console displays themselves are simply not the mode for routing to
the computers.
Lynn
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ElPajaro
2009-03-19 12:12:02 UTC
Permalink
Guys

Need further guidance before I start cutting references and ranks from the
dual consoles. What I now have working is two console elements (Display0,
and Display1) which appears on each of the two monitors as directed by the
screen property number when I select 'View Full Screen'. What I did to get
this started was to copy and paste the console element and then select the
appropriate screen property. Now, of course, that resulted in two displays
with the same number of elements on each.

I did notice that when I select a Piston on Console0, it takes a delay
before Console1 changes to reflect that Pistons' Stop List. Shouldn't be an
issue after I divide the elements to their final resting places. I do
foresee the General Pistons exhibiting this delay even after I split things
up

If you are not too confused yet, then let me ask what the next step would
be. Would I delete references from, say the left monitors console elements,
that I only want to appear on the right monitor? The idea would be to have
the Accomp and Pedals along with all their pistons and Toys on the left
monitor and all the remaining elements to be on the right monitor.

Lost in Midi Land

Bill
Post by Lynn Walls
Bill,
The Consoles, 0 or 1, have no control over whether ranks are played on
computer 1 via a MIDI to USB cable or on computer 0 locally.
That routing is entirely defined by the Sound Source elements referenced
by the Rank elements affected.
For example, if you only have one Tibia rank, a Tibia stop appearing on
the Great console and a Tibia stop appearing on the Accomp console would
both ALWAYS play from the computer, either 0 or 1, to which the single
Tibia Rank's Sound Source element is directed.
And so forth, for all the Ranks.
The console displays themselves are simply not the mode for routing to
the computers.
Lynn
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ElPajaro
2009-03-19 13:01:52 UTC
Permalink
Guys

After further testing things are getting more difficult than I thought. I
figured that I would be able to go to Console0 and just delete elements that
I only wanted to remain on Console1; however, that is not how it works. When
I deleted an Element Skin Graphic from Console0 it also disappeared from
Console1 and in fact was deleted from the entire Disposition!

So the next thing I tried was Copy and Paste an element thereby making a new
one. I left the original element on Console0 and then replaced the element
on Console1 with the newly created one. So what that test tells me is that I
will have to create all the elements for Console1 all over again. You can
not just delete elements from one Console and expect them to remain on the
other.

I thought I could just go to Console1 and lasso all the elements that I
didn't want on that display, say all the Pedal and Accomp group and delete.
Wrong! I had to recreate them all before deleting them all and then replace
them onto Console0 only. Now that is time consuming on a large disposition.

I hope some one else knows of a better way!

Bill
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Lynn Walls
2009-03-19 15:14:53 UTC
Permalink
Bill,

You don't need to be copying/duplicating/creating/deleting elements or
messing with the skin specification of the various
stop/coupler/piston/etc. elements that you want to have appear on one
console element display or the other.

Simply look at your original "Referenced from" lists of each of the
stop/coupler/etc. elements you have, and decide which CONSOLE element you
want to have each one appear on. Then make sure that each such element
(stop/coupler/etc.) is ONLY REFERENCED FROM the console element on which
you want it to appear.

Another way to adjust the relationship from the "other end" is to look at
the "Reference to" lists of each of the two CONSOLE elements and make sure
that each such list only includes references to the stop/coupler/etc.
elements that you want you have appear on that specific console screen.

CLW
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by ElPajaro
After further testing things are getting more difficult than I thought. I
figured that I would be able to go to Console0 and just delete elements that
I only wanted to remain on Console1; however, that is not how it works. When
I deleted an Element Skin Graphic from Console0 it also disappeared from
Console1 and in fact was deleted from the entire Disposition!
So the next thing I tried was Copy and Paste an element thereby making a new
one. I left the original element on Console0 and then replaced the element
on Console1 with the newly created one. So what that test tells me is that I
will have to create all the elements for Console1 all over again. You can
not just delete elements from one Console and expect them to remain on the
other.
I thought I could just go to Console1 and lasso all the elements that I
didn't want on that display, say all the Pedal and Accomp group and delete.
Wrong! I had to recreate them all before deleting them all and then replace
them onto Console0 only. Now that is time consuming on a large
disposition.
ElPajaro
2009-03-19 16:08:43 UTC
Permalink
Lynn

Thank you for the method. I will give it try. It sure sounds to me to be far
easier than my clug!

Bill
Post by Lynn Walls
Bill,
You don't need to be copying/duplicating/creating/deleting elements or
messing with the skin specification of the various
stop/coupler/piston/etc. elements that you want to have appear on one
console element display or the other.
Simply look at your original "Referenced from" lists of each of the
stop/coupler/etc. elements you have, and decide which CONSOLE element you
want to have each one appear on. Then make sure that each such element
(stop/coupler/etc.) is ONLY REFERENCED FROM the console element on which
you want it to appear.
Another way to adjust the relationship from the "other end" is to look at
the "Reference to" lists of each of the two CONSOLE elements and make sure
that each such list only includes references to the stop/coupler/etc.
elements that you want you have appear on that specific console screen.
CLW
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Lynn Walls
2009-03-19 15:02:50 UTC
Permalink
I have never used two consoles on two displays before...but let me take a
guess about the delay in refreshing the "Other" display. I think it may
be a Microsoft Windows thing. Windows recognizes what is known as the
CURRENTLY ACTIVE window -- the one you are clicking or typing on. All
other windows are considered inactive or dormant or background, and are
not given high priority for getting updated, especially if there are other
high priority tasks currently queued for processing resources (like
rendering sound in Fluidsynth).

When Windows knows you made a change on a window, that window gets updated
instantly. But when an object on an inactive window gets changed, Windows
takes its good old time about repainting that window with the change.

As to having elements on appear on one console or the other, simply have
each element (stop, piston, label, swell, coupler, etc.) ONLY reference
the console element on which you want it to appear.

Lynn
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by ElPajaro
Need further guidance before I start cutting references and ranks from the
dual consoles. What I now have working is two console elements (Display0,
and Display1) which appears on each of the two monitors as directed by the
screen property number when I select 'View Full Screen'. What I did to get
this started was to copy and paste the console element and then select the
appropriate screen property. Now, of course, that resulted in two displays
with the same number of elements on each.
I did notice that when I select a Piston on Console0, it takes a delay
before Console1 changes to reflect that Pistons' Stop List. Shouldn't be an
issue after I divide the elements to their final resting places. I do
foresee the General Pistons exhibiting this delay even after I split things
up
If you are not too confused yet, then let me ask what the next step would
be. Would I delete references from, say the left monitors console elements,
that I only want to appear on the right monitor? The idea would be to have
the Accomp and Pedals along with all their pistons and Toys on the left
monitor and all the remaining elements to be on the right monitor.
Sven Meier
2009-03-18 21:12:24 UTC
Permalink
Hi Dennis,

no, you cannot split a disposition between two computers.

Either you can use one jOrgan disposition and route its Midi messages to
two different computers, or you start jOrgan twice, each operating on
its own disposition.

Sven
Post by drwilx
Hi all,
Let me return to the initial question: can two consoles be used to enable
the couplers and general pistons to work throughout the organ even though
only one console with only the tabs and controls for half the organ is
visible on the screen? If someone has done this, is there an example I can
study?
Second point is that I do not intend to use ethernet to send the midi
signals to the computers. I can send identical midi messages simultaneously
to two computers via usb- The two computers will not be connected to each
other in any way. With the two computers being identical the processing of
the midi information should be close enough in timing.
Kind Regards,
Dennis
M***@aol.com
2009-03-18 15:48:38 UTC
Permalink
Hey Geert...
..yes, I have a classical disposition also. At the risk of
repeating myself endlessly... I would ask anyone to think a moment about
why large instruments sound large... and I do not mean because they are loud.
I mean the chorus effect of multiple ranks. Could we... by using multiple
nearly identical soundfonts create a "large instrument" sound without the need
for loud... so we can have a pleasant experience in our living rooms.

The answer is most assuredly YES.

I am working on a website currently for myself... and in a week or so I will
put up some sound examples of a couple dispositions.
Kindest Regards
Marc-Paul



In a message dated 3/18/2009 9:44:01 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
***@gmail.com writes:

Marc-Paul,

Wish I could hear that !!

Do you think this can also work for a classical organ??
And what about the neighbours?? -:)
Not to speak about the structural damage to the house that can be caused !!

greetings,

Geert

2009/3/18 <***@aol.com_ (mailto:***@aol.com) >


Greetings Bill and all...
....I used ethernetmidi for some time and
it works well. I have 4 computers networked with MidiOverLan and multiple
channels of information for multiple soundfont banks. (even wireless works)
Yes it costs a few $$... but works flawlessly and does not have to be "started".

I am looking for the sound of a larger organ in a smaller space. So
multiple channels and multiple speaker systems is how I achieve that. With
soundblaster cards the same soundfont can be loaded in multiple locations without any
memory "expense" other than the original. A rank can be slightly de-tuned
or a string can be "unde" easly. In my Theatre disposition each trem has
been adjusted individually and a trem and non-trem voice appear side by side.
Its a dream come true.

As some say... "Have fun"
Marc-Paul





In a message dated 3/18/2009 7:46:58 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
***@hotmail.com_ (mailto:***@hotmail.com) writes:





Dennis

As Marc-Paul mentioned, using a midi over LAN link does allow for multiple
computers to handle dispositions. Musiclabs midi over LAN runs around $130 to
$170 for a two computer license. However, what I used to get two computers
going using jOrgan and Miditzer was ethernetmidi, available at
_http://www..linuxsampler.org/ethernetmidi/_ (http://www.linuxsampler.org/ethernetmidi/) It
only works on Windows and it cost zero dollars. The latency was near zero.

So, for your research and experimental stages you might use the free
version. If you find that it all works as you hope then you can step it up to a
"professional" version like Musiclabs.

Bill


____________________________________
From: ***@aol.com_ (mailto:***@aol.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 22:35:54 -0400
To: _jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net_
(mailto:jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net)
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] 2 Computer Setup

Hi Dennis...
....my plans are similar to yours... however I am going
to try identical dispositions on two of three computers that are networked.

My setup is 8 xfi extreme music cards across three networked computers.
Each card has a single stereo output. I use MusicLabs software to access the
soundfonts in "remote" computers the same as local computer. jOrgan controls
all of it without problem.

I have another computer ahead of the main jOrgan computer that runs Sonar to
control and record the midi stream.

Two identical dispositions would respond to the piston data and expression
the same... that's why I want to give it a try.

Or I could just control all of it with one as I am now... the advantage is
the ease of recording and playback. I frequently play the digital piano and
jOrgan disposition together... the midi recording computer makes that easy
enough.

I've discovered by experimentation that the min. sys. req. for smooth
operation is 2ghz P4 512meg ram.

Kindest Regards
Marc-Paul


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M***@aol.com
2009-03-18 22:07:02 UTC
Permalink
Regarding two instances of jOrgan...
...why not
put two monitors on one computer, then simply move one instance to the other
extended desktop?

Would that work?

Marc-Paul


In a message dated 3/18/2009 4:13:25 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
***@meiers.net writes:

Hi Dennis,

no, you cannot split a disposition between two computers.

Either you can use one jOrgan disposition and route its Midi messages to
two different computers, or you start jOrgan twice, each operating on
its own disposition.

Sven
Post by drwilx
Hi all,
Let me return to the initial question: can two consoles be used to enable
the couplers and general pistons to work throughout the organ even though
only one console with only the tabs and controls for half the organ is
visible on the screen? If someone has done this, is there an example I can
study?
Second point is that I do not intend to use ethernet to send the midi
signals to the computers. I can send identical midi messages simultaneously
to two computers via usb- The two computers will not be connected to each
other in any way. With the two computers being identical the processing of
the midi information should be close enough in timing.
Kind Regards,
Dennis
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Paul Kealy
2009-03-19 14:21:20 UTC
Permalink
I am very interested in this specific application myself
(If I'm reading you correctly).

In fact, I have repeatedly requested the screen graphics of the
stoptabs be designed to allow a vertical split down the center
into two specific halves, so each could be displayed on
separate monitors a half at a time, and placed on opposite
sides of the keyboards.

This would work better for classic drawknob displays at the sides,
but certainly would be somewhat helpful for horseshoe replication
if the screen were divisible with an invisible separation into two halves.

But I see no problem with the idea to operate two separate
computers concomitantly, each computer configured to operate
separate specific keyboards, say computer 1 operate two manuals
and computer 2 operate a third manual and the pedal clavier.

Voicing might be a challenge to set volumes for unification and
coupling might be a bear, since certain ranks would play through
separate speakers when duplicated, but it could be a very much
more pipe-like sound, more as a divisional organ.

Challenging caveat is that each computer sends the output feeds
from its own separate soundcards to its own separate amplifiers.
That doesn't bother my ear, as I realize pipe organs have thousands
of speaking voices, and realize a single set of speakers in an organ
console or output speaker or two does not synthesize that acoustic
ambiance as well.

I prefer a plethora of speakers sending their waves into the air space
of the environment, mixing their music for the ears to hear, rather than
console-mounted speakers barking at the kneecaps or singing to the
crotch of the performing organist. But that's just me.

PK
TheatreOrgans.com/StentorVox

drwbus wrote
<snip>
Let me return to the initial question: can two consoles
be used to enable the couplers and general pistons to
work throughout the organ even though only one console
with only the tabs and controls for half the organ is
visible on the screen?
<snip>
M***@aol.com
2009-03-19 14:30:22 UTC
Permalink
Q: did you end up with two monitors on one computer or two computers with
separate monitors?
Marc-Paul
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Graham Goode
2009-03-19 14:37:43 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
With the setup that you have described I would assume that you had
both 'console' elements being referenced by the stop element. I would
imagine that simply deleting the 'left console element' from the the
Stops that you want on the right, and deleting the 'right console
element' from the Stops that you want on the left would be the answer.
I'm not at my jOrgan computer at the moment so can't give specific
answers. Hopefully that is enough to get the ball rolling ;-)
GrahamG
drwilx
2009-03-19 15:38:01 UTC
Permalink
My goal is to use two computers. I know I can make it work without the
couplers between the great and say the pedal, so I was looking for a way to
accomplish this using two console elements on each instance of the
disposition. One console element would be 'used' on a particular computer
and the other would just be there for linkage purposes.

Dennis
Post by M***@aol.com
Q: did you end up with two monitors on one computer or two computers with
separate monitors?
Marc-Paul
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ElPajaro
2009-03-19 16:15:53 UTC
Permalink
Marc-Paul

Yes, right now I am running two monitors on one computers and the sound
fonts loaded on two computers. Since the load offered by jOrgan is quite low
I don't see any advantage of using two computers to handle the Relay
portion. But, I like the ability to run five Sound Blaster sound cards with
2 synths per card across two computers linked via Midi to USB cable.

I am more interested in learning how to split the disposition down the
middle and place half on the two monitors. And, also, splitting a VTPO by
keyboards across two monitors. That will allow for larger stop tabs and
pistons.

Bill
Post by M***@aol.com
Q: did you end up with two monitors on one computer or two computers with
separate monitors?
Marc-Paul
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M***@aol.com
2009-03-19 16:44:54 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Bil...
...I believe I understand what you are up to now. I
decided to abandon looks for more stops... so I have no "skin". My Theatre
disposition has trem and non trem stops side by side... with divisions that are on
two other computers played directly from the main. Same thing you are
doing... I just have 3 computers with a total of 8 x-fi cards. I have a 4
position KVM on the three computers.

I think I will try what you are doing with a second monitor and see what
happens.

Thanks and BEST OF LUCK.
Marc-Paul



In a message dated 3/19/2009 11:17:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
***@hotmail.com writes:


Marc-Paul

Yes, right now I am running two monitors on one computers and the sound
fonts loaded on two computers. Since the load offered by jOrgan is quite low
I don't see any advantage of using two computers to handle the Relay
portion. But, I like the ability to run five Sound Blaster sound cards with
2 synths per card across two computers linked via Midi to USB cable.

I am more interested in learning how to split the disposition down the
middle and place half on the two monitors. And, also, splitting a VTPO by
keyboards across two monitors. That will allow for larger stop tabs and
pistons.

Bill
Q: did you end up with two monitors on one computer or two computers with
separate monitors?
Marc-Paul
--
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WILLIAM BURD
2009-03-19 17:59:34 UTC
Permalink
Marc-Paul

As soon as I am finished splitting this VTPO disposition into left and right monitors I will make it available so you can use it and improve upon it.

Sharing is the root of this wonderful jOrgan web site.

PS, I about 75 % complete in the split.


Bill

From: ***@aol.com
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 12:44:54 -0400
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] 2 Computer Setup








Thanks Bil...

...I believe I understand what you are up to now. I decided to abandon
looks for more stops... so I have no "skin". My Theatre disposition has
trem and non trem stops side by side... with divisions that are on two other
computers played directly from the main. Same thing you are doing... I
just have 3 computers with a total of 8 x-fi cards. I have a 4 position
KVM on the three computers.

I think I will try what you are doing with a second monitor and see what
happens.

Thanks and BEST OF LUCK.
Marc-Paul



In a message dated 3/19/2009 11:17:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
***@hotmail.com writes:

Marc-Paul

Yes, right now I am running two monitors on one
computers and the sound
fonts loaded on two computers. Since the load
offered by jOrgan is quite low
I don't see any advantage of using two
computers to handle the Relay
portion. But, I like the ability to run five
Sound Blaster sound cards with
2 synths per card across two computers
linked via Midi to USB cable.

I am more interested in learning how to
split the disposition down the
middle and place half on the two monitors.
And, also, splitting a VTPO by
keyboards across two monitors. That will
allow for larger stop tabs and
pistons.

Bill


Marc-Paul
Post by M***@aol.com
Q: did you end up with two monitors on one
computer or two computers with
Post by M***@aol.com
separate monitors?
Marc-Paul
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Nabble.com.


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ElPajaro
2009-03-19 22:29:01 UTC
Permalink
Marc-Paul and any others that are interested in a dual monitor project:

The below link is my first attempt at a Dual Monitor VTPO.
http://www.northparkmeadows.com/images/dual Monitor project.zip Down Load
dual monitor Project - beta I included the Disposition and the Skin File.
The sound font is located on Kent Allmans web site and is the USF project
sf2 setup: http://prosites-allmanmusic.homestead.com/UniversalSF.html
USFont


Marc-Paul or any others that look at this effort, please give me some advice
as to improve upon it. Note that I set the OUTPUT to a single Sound Blaster
X-Fi for ease in converting to your system. I also used the jOrgan keyboard
for testing. These should be easy to modify using Sven great customizer! On
my system I use two computers and five sound cards. I also have an actual
console that handles the Keyboards, Pistons and Stops but there is no way
that your system would match so I switched everything to vanilla. PS you
need to add the support LIB files including the Generic Sound DLL, etc.....


Bill
Post by M***@aol.com
Thanks Bil...
...I believe I understand what you are up to now. I
decided to abandon looks for more stops... so I have no "skin". My Theatre
disposition has trem and non trem stops side by side... with divisions that are on
two other computers played directly from the main. Same thing you are
doing... I just have 3 computers with a total of 8 x-fi cards. I have a 4
position KVM on the three computers.
I think I will try what you are doing with a second monitor and see what
happens.
Thanks and BEST OF LUCK.
Marc-Paul
In a message dated 3/19/2009 11:17:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
Marc-Paul
Yes, right now I am running two monitors on one computers and the sound
fonts loaded on two computers. Since the load offered by jOrgan is quite low
I don't see any advantage of using two computers to handle the Relay
portion. But, I like the ability to run five Sound Blaster sound cards with
2 synths per card across two computers linked via Midi to USB cable.
I am more interested in learning how to split the disposition down the
middle and place half on the two monitors. And, also, splitting a VTPO by
keyboards across two monitors. That will allow for larger stop tabs and
pistons.
Bill
Q: did you end up with two monitors on one computer or two computers with
separate monitors?
Marc-Paul
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ElPajaro
2009-03-19 22:53:34 UTC
Permalink
The link for the disposition appears to be corrupt so lets try this one:

http://www.northparkmeadows.com/images/dualMonitorproject.zip Dual Monitor
Project

Sorry for the delay

Bill
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M***@aol.com
2009-03-20 18:43:38 UTC
Permalink
Wow...
...that really looks great. Congrats.
Marc-Paul


In a message dated 3/20/2009 12:59:57 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
***@hotmail.com writes:


Guys

Just a peek at my efforts in splitting the console onto 2 monitors. On the
Left we have the Acomp and Pedals and on the right the Solo and Great
Manuals: All features work just as before I did the split. Also, all
couplers do what couplers do regardless of location of the two monitors:



http://www.nabble.com/file/p22625684/console.jpg


Bill
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WILLIAM BURD
2009-03-20 18:54:52 UTC
Permalink
Marc-Paul

Thank you, coming from you that means a lot to me.


Bill

From: ***@aol.com
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 14:43:38 -0400
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] 2 Computer Setup








Wow...

...that really looks great. Congrats.
Marc-Paul


In a message dated 3/20/2009 12:59:57 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
***@hotmail.com writes:

Guys

Just a peek at my efforts in splitting the console onto
2 monitors. On the
Left we have the Acomp and Pedals and on the right the
Solo and Great
Manuals: All features work just as before I did the split.
Also, all
couplers do what couplers do regardless of location of the two
monitors:



http://www.nabble.com/file/p22625684/console.jpg



Bill
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Nabble.com.


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Paul Stratman
2009-03-20 19:11:43 UTC
Permalink
Yes, that looks wonderful.

Are those touch screens?

Paul Stratman
Post by Paul Kealy
Marc-Paul
Thank you, coming from you that means a lot to me.
Bill
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 14:43:38 -0400
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] 2 Computer Setup
Wow...
...that really looks great. Congrats.
Marc-Paul
In a message dated 3/20/2009 12:59:57 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
Guys
Just a peek at my efforts in splitting the console onto 2 monitors. On the
Left we have the Acomp and Pedals and on the right the Solo and Great
Manuals: All features work just as before I did the split. Also, all
http://www.nabble.com/file/p22625684/console.jpg
Bill
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ElPajaro
2009-03-20 19:30:07 UTC
Permalink
Paul

Thank you so very much for the comment!

No I do not need touch screens since my console has enough Pistons to assign
to the on screen Generals. I do have all the special items like Horse Clop,
Klaxon, Train Whistle, etc assigned to Pistons on the console and I have 40
Stop Tabs assigned from the console to the disposition manly for Trems and
Toys plus enough Stops to add color during playing to the Selected
Piston(s).

A touch screen or screens would be too expensive and would be very
distractive to me since I am so reliant on the sheet music. After numerous
years of playing I do not have a single piece of music that I can play
without my sheets. I am missing the memory gene!!!!

So why dual screens? Because it looks cool when setup on the console.
Impresses my friends and family and covers for my crappy playing ability.
They are so captivated by the Stop Tabs flipping on/off that I get away with
sour notes and bad timing; at least for the short term! :drunk:

Bill
Post by Paul Stratman
Yes, that looks wonderful.
Are those touch screens?
Paul Stratman
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Lynn Walls
2009-03-20 20:45:05 UTC
Permalink
... After numerous
years of playing I do not have a single piece of music that I can play
without my sheets. I am missing the memory gene!!!!
Don't feel bad. I can't believe it's all due to bad memory.

I have the SAME problem. I cannot play a single piece of music to
completion without SOMETHING on the music rack!

I have at least gotten to the point where it only has to be a melody
line lead sheet with chord annotations. I can do a halfway decent job
of improvising pedal walks and chords and fills and counter melodies,
even cold on a new piece -- but I am just plain dead-in-the-water
without that written melody line and chord suggestions.

I can play something a hundred times flawlessly with the sheet, yet
still cannot play it through even ONCE without the the sheet!

Is that a "memory" problem -- or just some king of bizarre insecurity?

Lynn
orgel jeux
2009-03-20 20:56:02 UTC
Permalink
Isnt it true, that the highest reachable in organ-playing is improvising??
No sheets needed !!

happy playing,

Geert
Post by Lynn Walls
... After numerous
years of playing I do not have a single piece of music that I can play
without my sheets. I am missing the memory gene!!!!
Don't feel bad. I can't believe it's all due to bad memory.
I have the SAME problem. I cannot play a single piece of music to
completion without SOMETHING on the music rack!
I have at least gotten to the point where it only has to be a melody
line lead sheet with chord annotations. I can do a halfway decent job
of improvising pedal walks and chords and fills and counter melodies,
even cold on a new piece -- but I am just plain dead-in-the-water
without that written melody line and chord suggestions.
I can play something a hundred times flawlessly with the sheet, yet
still cannot play it through even ONCE without the the sheet!
Is that a "memory" problem -- or just some king of bizarre insecurity?
Lynn
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WILLIAM BURD
2009-03-20 20:57:19 UTC
Permalink
Lynn

I don't know if it memory or not, but, at Church they make me wear a name tag. Being retired and not working at Wal Mart, that is the only name tag I have. My wife calls for the dog and I come running, so, maybe it is the memory gene that is missing or just bad hearing. However, when the Social Security check arrives with my name on it, I know because it matches my name tag, my wife says, "no, no, that is my check!"

So I don't know for sure.

What did you think of the dual monitor solution, after all, I did use your Skins file because I am skin file illiterate!

Bill
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 16:45:05 -0400
Subject: [jOrgan-user] Is it REALLY a MEMORY thing? (was: 2 Computer Setup)
... After numerous
years of playing I do not have a single piece of music that I can play
without my sheets. I am missing the memory gene!!!!
Don't feel bad. I can't believe it's all due to bad memory.
I have the SAME problem. I cannot play a single piece of music to
completion without SOMETHING on the music rack!
I have at least gotten to the point where it only has to be a melody
line lead sheet with chord annotations. I can do a halfway decent job
of improvising pedal walks and chords and fills and counter melodies,
even cold on a new piece -- but I am just plain dead-in-the-water
without that written melody line and chord suggestions.
I can play something a hundred times flawlessly with the sheet, yet
still cannot play it through even ONCE without the the sheet!
Is that a "memory" problem -- or just some king of bizarre insecurity?
Lynn
_________________________________________________________________
Internet Explorer 8 – Now Available. Faster, safer, easier.
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Lynn Walls
2009-03-20 22:36:12 UTC
Permalink
Bill,

ABOUT THE TWO MONITORS:

Your screens were great! Makes me want to get a 2nd monitor...except
that my computer's video card only has one monitor port on it. So, I
would have to buy more stuff.

My current monitor has touch-sensitivity. So, I wouldn't be happy with
the second monitor unless it also had touch sensitivity -- MORE money!

So for the time being, I will have to be content with a very crowded
single monitor.

But I'm glad to see that the split up can be done more or less
effortlessly. I did suspect that you were using my skin zip when I saw
the same shades of light blue and dark blue stop tabs. But where are
the Green ones?? :-)


ABOUT THE NAME TAG:

I think you are still safe with that name tag...that is, up until the
point where the Church starts making you wear it UPSIDE DOWN --- so that
YOU can read it!!!!

CLW
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by WILLIAM BURD
I don't know if it memory or not, but, at Church they make me wear a
name tag. Being retired and not working at Wal Mart, that is the only
name tag I have. My wife calls for the dog and I come running, so, maybe
it is the memory gene that is missing or just bad hearing. However, when
the Social Security check arrives with my name on it, I know because it
matches my name tag, my wife says, "no, no, that is my check!"
So I don't know for sure.
What did you think of the dual monitor solution, after all, I did use
your Skins file because I am skin file illiterate!
WILLIAM BURD
2009-03-20 23:07:12 UTC
Permalink
Lynn

Now I know why the name tag is upside down, I thought that was normal!

As far as the green stop tabs in the Skins, I do not have any green stops of the console so I removed them. I can't remember what they were for now that I think about it.

Any way, your Skins Zip is the real deal for us VTPO types, or at least for me and Dennis! We used the Allman USF for the basis of out rendition of your fine effort.

By the way, I still play your version of "Baby Face" because it so well done. I would just love to hear your put together the piece "Play a Simple Melody" by Irving Berlin!!!!!!!!!! Especially in .mp3/YouTube.


Bill
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 18:36:12 -0400
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Is it REALLY a MEMORY thing?
Bill,
Your screens were great! Makes me want to get a 2nd monitor...except
that my computer's video card only has one monitor port on it. So, I
would have to buy more stuff.
My current monitor has touch-sensitivity. So, I wouldn't be happy with
the second monitor unless it also had touch sensitivity -- MORE money!
So for the time being, I will have to be content with a very crowded
single monitor.
But I'm glad to see that the split up can be done more or less
effortlessly. I did suspect that you were using my skin zip when I saw
the same shades of light blue and dark blue stop tabs. But where are
the Green ones?? :-)
I think you are still safe with that name tag...that is, up until the
point where the Church starts making you wear it UPSIDE DOWN --- so that
YOU can read it!!!!
CLW
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live™ SkyDrive: Get 25 GB of free online storage.
http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_skydrive_032009
Lynn Walls
2009-03-20 23:24:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by WILLIAM BURD
As far as the green stop tabs in the Skins, I do not have any green
stops of the console so I removed them. I /*can't remember */what they
were for now that I think about it.
I used the Green tabs for switching three special effects (that most
organs don't even have):
1. Switch Piano Rank between Concert Grand and Honky-Tonk.
2. Switch Harp Rank between single-strike and Marimba re-iteration.
3. Switch Chrysoglott damping on and off.

CLW
Bernd Casper
2009-03-20 21:53:42 UTC
Permalink
Hi Lynn,

what a interesting theme. Also hesitating, let me add an European view angle though.
I play everything from the heart within minutes, taking away the sheets long before I can play the notes (something like) secure. After nearly 30 years of being musician I'm more than ever convinced, musical information is not memorized in the head ("ratio"). It's "filed" in the "second brain", the combination of solarplexus and spinal cord called subconsciousness. I assume that's why this is called so amazing and so true "from the heart" in English.
Bernd.

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: "Lynn Walls" <***@comcast.net>
An: <jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
Gesendet: Freitag, 20. März 2009 21:45
Betreff: [jOrgan-user] Is it REALLY a MEMORY thing? (was: 2 Computer Setup)
... After numerous
years of playing I do not have a single piece of music that I can play
without my sheets. I am missing the memory gene!!!!
Don't feel bad. I can't believe it's all due to bad memory.

I have the SAME problem. I cannot play a single piece of music to
completion without SOMETHING on the music rack!

I have at least gotten to the point where it only has to be a melody
line lead sheet with chord annotations. I can do a halfway decent job
of improvising pedal walks and chords and fills and counter melodies,
even cold on a new piece -- but I am just plain dead-in-the-water
without that written melody line and chord suggestions.

I can play something a hundred times flawlessly with the sheet, yet
still cannot play it through even ONCE without the the sheet!

Is that a "memory" problem -- or just some king of bizarre insecurity?

Lynn
Lynn Walls
2009-03-20 22:23:40 UTC
Permalink
Bernd,

I think you are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. There is a certain musical "Je ne
sais quoi" quality that some people have -- and some simply do not!

If you have it, you can make music flow from your fingers and feet as
effortlessly as you speak your native language.

But if you don't have it, music becomes as difficult as a foreign
language that you never ever seem to get accustomed to.

CLW
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Bernd Casper
Hi Lynn,
what a interesting theme. Also hesitating, let me add an European view angle though.
I play everything from the heart within minutes, taking away the sheets long before I can play the notes (something like) secure. After nearly 30 years of being musician I'm more than ever convinced, musical information is not memorized in the head ("ratio"). It's "filed" in the "second brain", the combination of solarplexus and spinal cord called subconsciousness. I assume that's why this is called so amazing and so true "from the heart" in English.
Bernd.
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Gesendet: Freitag, 20. März 2009 21:45
Betreff: [jOrgan-user] Is it REALLY a MEMORY thing? (was: 2 Computer Setup)
... After numerous
years of playing I do not have a single piece of music that I can play
without my sheets. I am missing the memory gene!!!!
Don't feel bad. I can't believe it's all due to bad memory.
I have the SAME problem. I cannot play a single piece of music to
completion without SOMETHING on the music rack!
I have at least gotten to the point where it only has to be a melody
line lead sheet with chord annotations. I can do a halfway decent job
of improvising pedal walks and chords and fills and counter melodies,
even cold on a new piece -- but I am just plain dead-in-the-water
without that written melody line and chord suggestions.
I can play something a hundred times flawlessly with the sheet, yet
still cannot play it through even ONCE without the the sheet!
Is that a "memory" problem -- or just some king of bizarre insecurity?
Lynn
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM) are
powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and
easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development
software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging.
Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com
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Bernd Casper
2009-03-21 08:14:08 UTC
Permalink
Lynn,
do you mean that "special something"? But everybody has!!

Among others, things which can block the artistical ability of every human being steadily are to INTERPRETE ("mind"), to ASSUME ("spirit"), to PREJUDICE ("ratio"), to FEAR ("heart", "spirit"), and not to be INTERESTED in ("heart-opened"). Unfortunately those things are the basics of the actual "progress" of western culture of illusionists.

Your disposition tool, for instance, for me is a work of art absolutely. I never could do so.

Thinking about Marc-Paul's vitamin B12.
Do you know the pianist Leopold Godowsky? In the shellac era he made a certain amount of recordings of the classical piano concertos, and Chopin solo music, which are in one line with the big lions of piano playing. But nobody saw him to play a concert in public ever. He described it as a perfect blackout. He sat on the piano chair and didn't know for what the white and black keys are used. Glenn Gould was suffering from the same. He described it as "open nerve ends into the environment". Undoubtely those were great artists.

Bernd.



-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: "Lynn Walls" <***@comcast.net>
An: <jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
Gesendet: Freitag, 20. März 2009 23:23
Betreff: Re: [jOrgan-user] Is it REALLY a MEMORY thing?


Bernd,

I think you are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. There is a certain musical "Je ne
sais quoi" quality that some people have -- and some simply do not!

If you have it, you can make music flow from your fingers and feet as
effortlessly as you speak your native language.

But if you don't have it, music becomes as difficult as a foreign
language that you never ever seem to get accustomed to.

CLW
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Bernd Casper
Hi Lynn,
what a interesting theme. Also hesitating, let me add an European view angle though.
I play everything from the heart within minutes, taking away the sheets long before I can play the notes (something like) secure. After nearly 30 years of being musician I'm more than ever convinced, musical information is not memorized in the head ("ratio"). It's "filed" in the "second brain", the combination of solarplexus and spinal cord called subconsciousness. I assume that's why this is called so amazing and so true "from the heart" in English.
Bernd.
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Gesendet: Freitag, 20. März 2009 21:45
Betreff: [jOrgan-user] Is it REALLY a MEMORY thing? (was: 2 Computer Setup)
... After numerous
years of playing I do not have a single piece of music that I can play
without my sheets. I am missing the memory gene!!!!
Don't feel bad. I can't believe it's all due to bad memory.
I have the SAME problem. I cannot play a single piece of music to
completion without SOMETHING on the music rack!
I have at least gotten to the point where it only has to be a melody
line lead sheet with chord annotations. I can do a halfway decent job
of improvising pedal walks and chords and fills and counter melodies,
even cold on a new piece -- but I am just plain dead-in-the-water
without that written melody line and chord suggestions.
I can play something a hundred times flawlessly with the sheet, yet
still cannot play it through even ONCE without the the sheet!
Is that a "memory" problem -- or just some king of bizarre insecurity?
Lynn
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM) are
powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and
easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development
software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging.
Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com
_______________________________________________
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orgel jeux
2009-03-21 10:11:41 UTC
Permalink
We are talking about something!! Something I do not ( intellectually) know
much about, but which somehow ( don't know how) I can feel somewhere.
Indeed, Glenn Gould was the one I thought about immediately when you said
these words, Bernd!
Another thing is, that - somehow - I suddenley am in the middle of a process
where " somebody" pulls me inevitably inside the music of Messaien......
Strange, music......


happy playing,

Geert
Post by Bernd Casper
Lynn,
do you mean that "special something"? But everybody has!!
Among others, things which can block the artistical ability of every human
being steadily are to INTERPRETE ("mind"), to ASSUME ("spirit"), to
PREJUDICE ("ratio"), to FEAR ("heart", "spirit"), and not to be INTERESTED
in ("heart-opened"). Unfortunately those things are the basics of the actual
"progress" of western culture of illusionists.
Your disposition tool, for instance, for me is a work of art absolutely. I
never could do so.
Thinking about Marc-Paul's vitamin B12.
Do you know the pianist Leopold Godowsky? In the shellac era he made a
certain amount of recordings of the classical piano concertos, and Chopin
solo music, which are in one line with the big lions of piano playing. But
nobody saw him to play a concert in public ever. He described it as a
perfect blackout. He sat on the piano chair and didn't know for what the
white and black keys are used. Glenn Gould was suffering from the same. He
described it as "open nerve ends into the environment". Undoubtely those
were great artists.
Bernd.
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Gesendet: Freitag, 20. März 2009 23:23
Betreff: Re: [jOrgan-user] Is it REALLY a MEMORY thing?
Bernd,
I think you are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. There is a certain musical "Je ne
sais quoi" quality that some people have -- and some simply do not!
If you have it, you can make music flow from your fingers and feet as
effortlessly as you speak your native language.
But if you don't have it, music becomes as difficult as a foreign
language that you never ever seem to get accustomed to.
CLW
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Bernd Casper
Hi Lynn,
what a interesting theme. Also hesitating, let me add an European view
angle though.
Post by Bernd Casper
I play everything from the heart within minutes, taking away the sheets
long before I can play the notes (something like) secure. After nearly 30
years of being musician I'm more than ever convinced, musical information is
not memorized in the head ("ratio"). It's "filed" in the "second brain", the
combination of solarplexus and spinal cord called subconsciousness. I assume
that's why this is called so amazing and so true "from the heart" in
English.
Post by Bernd Casper
Bernd.
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Gesendet: Freitag, 20. März 2009 21:45
Betreff: [jOrgan-user] Is it REALLY a MEMORY thing? (was: 2 Computer
Setup)
Post by Bernd Casper
... After numerous
years of playing I do not have a single piece of music that I can play
without my sheets. I am missing the memory gene!!!!
Don't feel bad. I can't believe it's all due to bad memory.
I have the SAME problem. I cannot play a single piece of music to
completion without SOMETHING on the music rack!
I have at least gotten to the point where it only has to be a melody
line lead sheet with chord annotations. I can do a halfway decent job
of improvising pedal walks and chords and fills and counter melodies,
even cold on a new piece -- but I am just plain dead-in-the-water
without that written melody line and chord suggestions.
I can play something a hundred times flawlessly with the sheet, yet
still cannot play it through even ONCE without the the sheet!
Is that a "memory" problem -- or just some king of bizarre insecurity?
Lynn
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Bernd Casper
Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM) are
powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and
easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based
development
Post by Bernd Casper
software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging.
Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com
_______________________________________________
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easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development
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John Beach
2009-03-21 11:38:33 UTC
Permalink
it is, indeed, a memory thing and it is best exemplified in youth. That "repetition is the mother of learning" is a fact and forms the basis of conditioning which is best effectuated, to a superior degree, in youth. Between the ages of 14 and 20, I learned four foreign languages with relative ease. At the age of 40, I found that I no longer had the ability to retain in memory lists of vocabulary for even short periods of time.
At the age of 41, I took up music and became proficient enough in about 6 years to be able to play church service music. At 62, I am an interim, full-time church organist, doing Sunday services. But I can commit nothing to memory! I have also noticed, much to my annoyance, that I infrequently draw a complete "blank" right in the middle of a conversation, as if my thought just suddenly took flight "to worlds unknown" and I am left speechless, something that few ever thought that one, gifted with speech, would ever mercifully experience.

A few years ago, I had the opportunity to attend an organ concert given by the chairman of the department of organ at Juilliard School of Music. He did a program of Bach works, entirely from memory. No sheet music from start to finish and the program was a 90-minute program with intermission. I believe it is far more difficult to memorize or commit to memory large works of music than it is to do the same with the vocabulary of a foreign language. There are intrinsic "helps" in language for which there are no comparables in music. Then too, there is the additional involvement of the intricate coordination of the hands and feet in music and this is demanding.

I have seen several of the world's most famous organists perform and it is obvious that they are gifted with phenomenal memories. It may be that those who are mathmatically-inclined or gifted have a greater ability to
retain large numbers or quantities of related variables than persons who are more gifted in language or history.
Nowever, it is also noteworthy that their abiity to express themselves verbally was equally impressive.

John Beach.
orgel jeux
2009-03-21 12:34:09 UTC
Permalink
John, nice said.....Only take care if the mathematical brain takes lead!!



Look and listen to Cameron Carpenter....


Greetings,

Geert
Post by John Beach
it is, indeed, a memory thing and it is best exemplified in youth. That
"repetition is the mother of learning" is a fact and forms the basis of
conditioning which is best effectuated, to a superior degree, in youth.
Between the ages of 14 and 20, I learned four foreign languages with
relative ease. At the age of 40, I found that I no longer had the ability
to retain in memory lists of vocabulary for even short periods of time.
At the age of 41, I took up music and became proficient enough in about 6
years to be able to play church service music. At 62, I am an interim,
full-time church organist, doing Sunday services. But I can commit nothing
to memory! I have also noticed, much to my annoyance, that I infrequently
draw a complete "blank" right in the middle of a conversation, as if my
thought just suddenly took flight "to worlds unknown" and I am left
speechless, something that few ever thought that one, gifted with speech,
would ever mercifully experience.
A few years ago, I had the opportunity to attend an organ concert given by
the chairman of the department of organ at Juilliard School of Music. He
did a program of Bach works, entirely from memory. No sheet music from
start to finish and the program was a 90-minute program with intermission.
I believe it is far more difficult to memorize or commit to memory large
works of music than it is to do the same with the vocabulary of a foreign
language. There are intrinsic "helps" in language for which there are no
comparables in music. Then too, there is the additional involvement of the
intricate coordination of the hands and feet in music and this is
demanding.
I have seen several of the world's most famous organists perform and it is
obvious that they are gifted with phenomenal memories. It may be that those
who are mathmatically-inclined or gifted have a greater ability to
retain large numbers or quantities of related variables than persons who
are more gifted in language or history.
Nowever, it is also noteworthy that their abiity to express themselves
verbally was equally impressive.
John Beach.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and
easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development
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Paul Stratman
2009-03-21 19:16:33 UTC
Permalink
Dear Geert,

The Trinity Wall Street organ was one of the inspirations for the ACO! (I
may have mentioned that before.)

(Carpenter added some theatrical voices and percussions for the performance
you referenced below.)

Paul
Post by orgel jeux
John, nice said.....Only take care if the mathematical brain takes lead!!
http://youtu.be/vtKgOZX3DcU
Look and listen to Cameron Carpenter....
Greetings,
Geert
--
__________________________________
Pastor Paul C. Stratman
St. Stephen's Ev. Lutheran Church (WELS)
Beaver Dam, Wisconsin
http://www.saintstephen.org
***@saintstephen.org
***@gmail.com
orgel jeux
2009-03-21 19:27:41 UTC
Permalink


Look at this, Paul, it is Barbara Dennerlein, one of my favorite
jazzplayers! I met her once after a concert here in Amsterdam ( which also
happend to be on youtube); a very nice person!!

Yes, now at last there is some bell going off....that you mentioned the
Trinity earlier.

Well, its a bit off topic here of course, but my reaction was about playing
" mathematically" in reaction on what John Beach said about the matter. And
I find Carpenter playing very " mathematically", at least the things I heard
so far.

Nice words about JSB !! Wanted to send you a picture of me standing in
Leipzig-Thomaskirche below his staute, but cant find it now.


Greetings, and I will certainly play something of him on the Silbermann
tonight !!
Post by Paul Stratman
Dear Geert,
The Trinity Wall Street organ was one of the inspirations for the ACO! (I
may have mentioned that before.)
(Carpenter added some theatrical voices and percussions for the performance
you referenced below.)
Paul
Post by orgel jeux
John, nice said.....Only take care if the mathematical brain takes lead!!
http://youtu.be/vtKgOZX3DcU
Look and listen to Cameron Carpenter....
Greetings,
Geert
--
__________________________________
Pastor Paul C. Stratman
St. Stephen's Ev. Lutheran Church (WELS)
Beaver Dam, Wisconsin
http://www.saintstephen.org
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and
easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development
software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging.
Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com
_______________________________________________
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Paul Stratman
2009-03-21 19:32:55 UTC
Permalink
Be sure to look at that Trinity Wall Street console, too!!
Post by orgel jeux
http://youtu.be/3b1b36YRodM
Look at this, Paul, it is Barbara Dennerlein, one of my favorite
jazzplayers! I met her once after a concert here in Amsterdam ( which also
happend to be on youtube); a very nice person!!
Yes, now at last there is some bell going off....that you mentioned the
Trinity earlier.
Well, its a bit off topic here of course, but my reaction was about playing
" mathematically" in reaction on what John Beach said about the matter. And
I find Carpenter playing very " mathematically", at least the things I heard
so far.
Nice words about JSB !! Wanted to send you a picture of me standing in
Leipzig-Thomaskirche below his staute, but cant find it now.
Greetings, and I will certainly play something of him on the Silbermann
tonight !!
Post by Paul Stratman
Dear Geert,
The Trinity Wall Street organ was one of the inspirations for the ACO! (I
may have mentioned that before.)
(Carpenter added some theatrical voices and percussions for the
performance you referenced below.)
Paul
Post by orgel jeux
John, nice said.....Only take care if the mathematical brain takes lead!!
http://youtu.be/vtKgOZX3DcU
Look and listen to Cameron Carpenter....
Greetings,
Geert
--
__________________________________
Pastor Paul C. Stratman
St. Stephen's Ev. Lutheran Church (WELS)
Beaver Dam, Wisconsin
http://www.saintstephen.org
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Apps built with the Adobe(R) Flex(R) framework and Flex Builder(TM) are
powering Web 2.0 with engaging, cross-platform capabilities. Quickly and
easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development
software that enables intelligent coding and step-through debugging.
Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com
_______________________________________________
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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easily build your RIAs with Flex Builder, the Eclipse(TM)based development
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Download the free 60 day trial. http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-adobe-com
_______________________________________________
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--
__________________________________
Pastor Paul C. Stratman
St. Stephen's Ev. Lutheran Church (WELS)
Beaver Dam, Wisconsin
http://www.saintstephen.org
***@saintstephen.org
***@gmail.com
orgel jeux
2009-03-21 19:40:42 UTC
Permalink
Ok Paul, we know it now. The original was after 9-11 not usable anymore I
read, and this thing really is not bad for a virtual instrument. But
hopefully once there will be a decent real organ again, built to perform in
a certain classical style, and not a camelion!!


Geert (thanks, anyhow for the extra attentions and urls you sent; one can
always learn from these things)
Post by Paul Stratman
Be sure to look at that Trinity Wall Street console, too!!
Post by orgel jeux
http://youtu.be/3b1b36YRodM
Look at this, Paul, it is Barbara Dennerlein, one of my favorite
jazzplayers! I met her once after a concert here in Amsterdam ( which also
happend to be on youtube); a very nice person!!
Yes, now at last there is some bell going off....that you mentioned the
Trinity earlier.
Well, its a bit off topic here of course, but my reaction was about
playing " mathematically" in reaction on what John Beach said about the
matter. And I find Carpenter playing very " mathematically", at least the
things I heard so far.
Nice words about JSB !! Wanted to send you a picture of me standing in
Leipzig-Thomaskirche below his staute, but cant find it now.
Greetings, and I will certainly play something of him on the Silbermann
tonight !!
Post by Paul Stratman
Dear Geert,
The Trinity Wall Street organ was one of the inspirations for the ACO! (I
may have mentioned that before.)
(Carpenter added some theatrical voices and percussions for the
performance you referenced below.)
Paul
Post by orgel jeux
John, nice said.....Only take care if the mathematical brain takes lead!!
http://youtu.be/vtKgOZX3DcU
Look and listen to Cameron Carpenter....
Greetings,
Geert
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orgel jeux
2009-03-21 19:42:56 UTC
Permalink


This is the long version; better quality of course by adding: &fmt=18
Post by orgel jeux
Ok Paul, we know it now. The original was after 9-11 not usable anymore I
read, and this thing really is not bad for a virtual instrument. But
hopefully once there will be a decent real organ again, built to perform in
a certain classical style, and not a camelion!!
Geert (thanks, anyhow for the extra attentions and urls you sent; one can
always learn from these things)
Post by Paul Stratman
Be sure to look at that Trinity Wall Street console, too!!
Post by orgel jeux
http://youtu.be/3b1b36YRodM
Look at this, Paul, it is Barbara Dennerlein, one of my favorite
jazzplayers! I met her once after a concert here in Amsterdam ( which also
happend to be on youtube); a very nice person!!
Yes, now at last there is some bell going off....that you mentioned the
Trinity earlier.
Well, its a bit off topic here of course, but my reaction was about
playing " mathematically" in reaction on what John Beach said about the
matter. And I find Carpenter playing very " mathematically", at least the
things I heard so far.
Nice words about JSB !! Wanted to send you a picture of me standing in
Leipzig-Thomaskirche below his staute, but cant find it now.
Greetings, and I will certainly play something of him on the Silbermann
tonight !!
Post by Paul Stratman
Dear Geert,
The Trinity Wall Street organ was one of the inspirations for the ACO!
(I may have mentioned that before.)
(Carpenter added some theatrical voices and percussions for the
performance you referenced below.)
Paul
Post by orgel jeux
John, nice said.....Only take care if the mathematical brain takes lead!!
http://youtu.be/vtKgOZX3DcU
Look and listen to Cameron Carpenter....
Greetings,
Geert
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Bernd Casper
2009-03-23 13:26:07 UTC
Permalink
Hello John,
after I thought some time about your impressive words of experience - what do you think means
"gifted"?
Bernd

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: John Beach
An: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Gesendet: Samstag, 21. März 2009 12:38
Betreff: Re: [jOrgan-user] Is it REALLY a MEMORY thing?


it is, indeed, a memory thing and it is best exemplified in youth. That "repetition is the mother
of learning" is a fact and forms the basis of conditioning which is best effectuated, to a superior
degree, in youth. Between the ages of 14 and 20, I learned four foreign languages with relative
ease. At the age of 40, I found that I no longer had the ability to retain in memory lists of
vocabulary for even short periods of time.
At the age of 41, I took up music and became proficient enough in about 6 years to be able to play
church service music. At 62, I am an interim, full-time church organist, doing Sunday services.
But I can commit nothing to memory! I have also noticed, much to my annoyance, that I infrequently
draw a complete "blank" right in the middle of a conversation, as if my thought just suddenly took
flight "to worlds unknown" and I am left speechless, something that few ever thought that one,
gifted with speech, would ever mercifully experience.

A few years ago, I had the opportunity to attend an organ concert given by the chairman of the
department of organ at Juilliard School of Music. He did a program of Bach works, entirely from
memory. No sheet music from start to finish and the program was a 90-minute program with
intermission. I believe it is far more difficult to memorize or commit to memory large works of
music than it is to do the same with the vocabulary of a foreign language. There are intrinsic
"helps" in language for which there are no comparables in music. Then too, there is the additional
involvement of the intricate coordination of the hands and feet in music and this is demanding.

I have seen several of the world's most famous organists perform and it is obvious that they are
gifted with phenomenal memories. It may be that those who are mathmatically-inclined or gifted have
a greater ability to
retain large numbers or quantities of related variables than persons who are more gifted in language
or history.
Nowever, it is also noteworthy that their abiity to express themselves verbally was equally
impressive.

John Beach.


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John Beach
2009-03-24 01:31:10 UTC
Permalink
Bernd,

"Gifted" (In English) means "having a talent for something", "being endowed with something" or
"possessing a singular ability or quality of or in something which produces superior achievement or status
in that field."

Given the differences in learning abilities relative to age and maturity, "giftedness" may be related to age.
However, I think "gifted students" are those who demonstrate perception and the ability to understand and apply
concepts during the formative student years, say 4 to 21 years of age, and attain superior results. It is the
comparisons in competitive study in a classroom of students of all learning abilities which indicate which ones consistently demonstrate "giftedness." It may also be used to indicate a particular, exceptional learning ability
or skill in a specific subject or field such as language or music.
I think that people tend to form opinions relative to the difficulty or facility with which certain subjects are learned
and then believe that people are "gifted" or have a "natural talent" for the subject.

I was not a "well-rounded, gifted" student. That is, I did not demonstrate any above average learning abilities
in most subjects in school. In math and science, I was below average. In languages and history, I was above average. Had I been more perceptive at the time, I would have learned a trade (such as woodworking, etc) rather than attempting a degree in Liberal Arts with a concentration in Modern Foreign Languages. The problem with
"giftedness" is that it may not lead a person to be pragmatic or practical in career choice or vocation. This is more important than "giftedness."
John Beach
Bernd Casper
2009-03-24 06:24:16 UTC
Permalink
John,
did I understand right, you doubt that kind of giftedness you'd describe doesn't show the "real
talents" of a person in that "practical" sense (e. g. to choose the adequate profession)? Is there a
giftedness beyond what's called "intelligence","scientific abilitiy","methodical approach"?
Bernd.

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: John Beach
An: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Gesendet: Dienstag, 24. März 2009 02:31
Betreff: Re: [jOrgan-user] Is it REALLY a MEMORY thing?


Bernd,

"Gifted" (In English) means "having a talent for something", "being endowed with something" or
"possessing a singular ability or quality of or in something which produces superior achievement or
status
in that field."

Given the differences in learning abilities relative to age and maturity, "giftedness" may be
related to age.
However, I think "gifted students" are those who demonstrate perception and the ability to
understand and apply
concepts during the formative student years, say 4 to 21 years of age, and attain superior results.
It is the
comparisons in competitive study in a classroom of students of all learning abilities which
indicate which ones consistently demonstrate "giftedness." It may also be used to indicate a
particular, exceptional learning ability
or skill in a specific subject or field such as language or music.
I think that people tend to form opinions relative to the difficulty or facility with which certain
subjects are learned
and then believe that people are "gifted" or have a "natural talent" for the subject.

I was not a "well-rounded, gifted" student. That is, I did not demonstrate any above average
learning abilities
in most subjects in school. In math and science, I was below average. In languages and history, I
was above average. Had I been more perceptive at the time, I would have learned a trade (such as
woodworking, etc) rather than attempting a degree in Liberal Arts with a concentration in Modern
Foreign Languages. The problem with
"giftedness" is that it may not lead a person to be pragmatic or practical in career choice or
vocation. This is more important than "giftedness."
John Beach


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
orgel jeux
2009-03-24 08:26:46 UTC
Permalink
John and Bernd,

Very interesting, Bernd, that you read the essay about " gifted" and
"memory" from John, like I did also.

This language thing, related to " mathematical intelligence', reminds me of
a time, where I was so surrounded by the english language, that I even
thought in English, dreamed in English, etc. During that time I did not
study grammar, lists of words, etc, and I spoke the language quite well
according to others.

I also followed some courses given by a professor in Neurology about the
function of the brain because I worked with people who had aqcuired brain
damages.
This has only expanded my astonishment about how much but also how little we
know about the human being. It is therefore very difficult to speak about
these matters in a definite way.
Although now that I have seen Cameron Carpenter speak also, ( explaining
and " demonstrating" an electronic organ somewhere (while demonstrating he
could only flick his fingers over the keyboards at Mach 2.0), I must agree
that besides the fact that he has trained his ability to remember
keypresses, he can also speak rather fluently.

That the " gift" of music has something to do with our mathematical brain,
is something though, that goes beyond what I can feel about this. They say
music ( I mean music that speaks to the emotion) comes " from the Heart".

That is all I could say about this matter.

Well, it is to my opinion very much off-topic, all this, but a well-worth
offspring of dealing with all these bits and bytes of Jorgan!!


Happy playing,

Geert
Post by Bernd Casper
John,
did I understand right, you doubt that kind of giftedness you'd describe
doesn't show the "real talents" of a person in that "practical" sense (e. g.
to choose the adequate profession)? Is there a giftedness beyond what's
called "intelligence","scientific abilitiy","methodical approach"?
Bernd.
*Gesendet:* Dienstag, 24. März 2009 02:31
*Betreff:* Re: [jOrgan-user] Is it REALLY a MEMORY thing?
Bernd,
"Gifted" (In English) means "having a talent for something", "being endowed
with something" or
"possessing a singular ability or quality of or in something which produces
superior achievement or status
in that field."
Given the differences in learning abilities relative to age and maturity,
"giftedness" may be related to age.
However, I think "gifted students" are those who demonstrate perception and
the ability to understand and apply
concepts during the formative student years, say 4 to 21 years of age, and
attain superior results. It is the
comparisons in competitive study in a classroom of students of all
learning abilities which indicate which ones consistently demonstrate
"giftedness." It may also be used to indicate a particular, exceptional
learning ability
or skill in a specific subject or field such as language or music.
I think that people tend to form opinions relative to the difficulty or
facility with which certain subjects are learned
and then believe that people are "gifted" or have a "natural talent" for the subject.
I was not a "well-rounded, gifted" student. That is, I did not
demonstrate any above average learning abilities
in most subjects in school. In math and science, I was below average. In
languages and history, I was above average. Had I been more perceptive at
the time, I would have learned a trade (such as woodworking, etc) rather
than attempting a degree in Liberal Arts with a concentration in Modern
Foreign Languages. The problem with
"giftedness" is that it may not lead a person to be pragmatic or practical
in career choice or vocation. This is more important than "giftedness."
John Beach
------------------------------
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John Beach
2009-03-24 13:10:34 UTC
Permalink
Bernd, I think it is important to be practical and choose a career in acquired skills that are marketable.
Some abilities relative to talent or "giftedness" are not marketable and, thus, they don't pay. They may be
interesting and enjoyable for the individual who has the ability, but a living can't be earned by their usage.
On the other hand, many church musicians in the U.S. are not paid. They literally donate their musical talents
to a church as a "service unto the Lord" and get no remuneration. Professional musicians, on the contrary, are usually paid. It was not until I learned to play and practiced for hundreds of hours that I realized the tremendous amount of work that goes into learning to play. I then realized that all that work was worth something and began to
feel that the musician, like the workman, "is worth his hire."
Since Music requires factoring fractions of note times (durations) within a measure "on the fly," the ability to do rapid
calculation, this is probably the area where the distinction between a "gifted" musician and a "rote-memorization" musician is clearly seen. Rote memorization gets the job done, but the "intuitiveness" of the "gifted" musician is
more appreciated as unique talent that does not appear to require as much "hard work." The person who can play by ear without the need for sheet music or without being able to sightread music notation, could certainly be said to have a talent, These people are more adaptable to all kinds of situations where the ability to play by ear is more advantageous than the ability of the musician who can only sightread music and can not play by ear.
John Beach
orgel jeux
2009-03-24 14:39:34 UTC
Permalink
John, I feel now it is the time to interrupt your essay a bit ( again)...
Pardon me if I misinterpret your words, but I don NOT believe that there is
a musician who cannot play by head !!

As a child of 5 or so, I used to play on my fathers piano the child's tunes
one could sing a bit. Or it were the - simple - tunes that you heard on the
radio or people sang or whistled. As soon as I could -by trial and error -
play such a strofe with one finger, I tried some simple chords to find out
which ones sounded not to dissonant against this melody line. After some
time I could remember 3 or 4 chords, and discoverd, that with these chords I
could play practically all melodies I knew.

I think, everybody who has learned to play the piano or organ, can in some
simple form play a melody by head and find out which simple 3-note chords he
likes best to accompany this melody.

Players of a solo-instrument can of course always play a melody by head;
take all those folk-songs all over the world. Only in later times people
started to collect what was played and put it into notation; also famous
composers did this.

So everybody who can play an instrument, can play by head !!

If you study a Bach's prelude long enough, you can play it by head also!

Greetings,

Geert (ps: I do not understand what this money-business has to do with our
conversations about the gift of music- or was it memory??)
Post by John Beach
Bernd, I think it is important to be practical and choose a career in
acquired skills that are marketable.
Some abilities relative to talent or "giftedness" are not marketable and,
thus, they don't pay. They may be
interesting and enjoyable for the individual who has the ability, but a
living can't be earned by their usage.
On the other hand, many church musicians in the U.S. are not paid. They
literally donate their musical talents
to a church as a "service unto the Lord" and get no remuneration.
Professional musicians, on the contrary, are usually paid. It was not until
I learned to play and practiced for hundreds of hours that I realized the
tremendous amount of work that goes into learning to play. I then realized
that all that work was worth something and began to
feel that the musician, like the workman, "is worth his hire."
Since Music requires factoring fractions of note times (durations) within a
measure "on the fly," the ability to do rapid
calculation, this is probably the area where the distinction between a
"gifted" musician and a "rote-memorization" musician is clearly seen. Rote
memorization gets the job done, but the "intuitiveness" of the "gifted"
musician is
more appreciated as unique talent that does not appear to require as much
"hard work." The person who can play by ear without the need for sheet
music or without being able to sightread music notation, could certainly be
said to have a talent, These people are more adaptable to all kinds of
situations where the ability to play by ear is more advantageous than the
ability of the musician who can only sightread music and can not play by
ear.
John Beach
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John Beach
2009-03-24 15:24:10 UTC
Permalink
Pardon me if I misinterpret your words, but I don NOT believe that there is a musician who cannot play by head !!
Geert, you have illustrated my point exactly. The idiomatic expression "to play by ear" (correct in English) is what you have probably translated from the Dutch "to play by head." In French, "jouer par coeur" or "apprendre par coeur".
"to play or learn by heart."
A truly gifted musician can hear something and sit down and play it back "by ear" without any sheet music notation.

"by ear" "by head" or "by "heart", why not "by body?"

John Beach
orgel jeux
2009-03-24 15:30:15 UTC
Permalink
ok.

Geert
Post by orgel jeux
Pardon me if I misinterpret your words, but I don NOT believe that there
is a musician who cannot play by head !!
Geert, you have illustrated my point exactly. The idiomatic expression "to
play by ear" (correct in English) is what you have probably translated from
the Dutch "to play by head." In French, "jouer par coeur" or "apprendre par
coeur".
"to play or learn by heart."
A truly gifted musician can hear something and sit down and play it back
"by ear" without any sheet music notation.
"by ear" "by head" or "by "heart", why not "by body?"
John Beach
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M***@aol.com
2009-03-20 21:09:13 UTC
Permalink
Greetings to all in this thread...
...I hesitate to come into this
conversation. However... I have considerable experience on this topic... so
here is a little advice.

For several years I have assisted in teaching a course in performance
anxiety at a local state university... in addition I used to train students to
announce on public radio. I developed these techniques because... and I do not
jest... my foot shook so bad on the expression pedals that you could see the
swell doors shake. If it hadn't been me... I would have laughed. Needless to
say... I also needed to be "cool, calm and collected" behind a microphone.

Given the correct nutrition... and I observe, not prescribe, a B-complex
vitamin supplement.. especially a small amount of B-12 for motor memory.

The rest is... as they say... in your head... but non the less real.

The quickest way to reduce the stress of remembering and performance anxiety
is to learn a little EFT. That stands for Emotional Freedom Technique. The
web site is _www.emofree.com_ (http://www.emofree.com) . You may download
a manual for free... and examine and search the substantial recourses in the
form of past newsletters on performance related and memory related issues.

With a few minutes study... you can make quite a bit of headway with your
head. (excuse... I couldn't resist)

Cheers
Marc-Paul

In a message dated 3/20/2009 3:45:57 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
... After numerous
years of playing I do not have a single piece of music that I can play
without my sheets. I am missing the memory gene!!!!
Don't feel bad. I can't believe it's all due to bad memory.

I have the SAME problem. I cannot play a single piece of music to
completion without SOMETHING on the music rack!

I have at least gotten to the point where it only has to be a melody
line lead sheet with chord annotations. I can do a halfway decent job
of improvising pedal walks and chords and fills and counter melodies,
even cold on a new piece -- but I am just plain dead-in-the-water
without that written melody line and chord suggestions.

I can play something a hundred times flawlessly with the sheet, yet
still cannot play it through even ONCE without the the sheet!

Is that a "memory" problem -- or just some king of bizarre insecurity?

Lynn

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Roy Radford
2009-03-21 10:18:32 UTC
Permalink
Hi, Geert,

                Explore Yoga...

   Maybe you were an organist in one of your past lives!   


      Have fun,

          Roy.

--- On Sat, 21/3/09, orgel jeux <***@gmail.com> wrote:

From: orgel jeux <***@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Is it REALLY a MEMORY thing?
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Date: Saturday, 21 March, 2009, 10:11 AM

We are talking about something!! Something I do not ( intellectually) know much about, but which somehow ( don't know how) I can feel somewhere. Indeed, Glenn Gould was the one I thought about immediately when you said these words, Bernd!

Another thing is, that - somehow - I suddenley am in the middle of a process where " somebody" pulls me inevitably inside the music of Messaien......
Strange, music......


happy playing,

Geert




2009/3/21 Bernd Casper <***@rite-instruments.de>

Lynn,

do you mean that "special something"? But everybody has!!



Among others, things which can block the artistical ability of every human being steadily are to INTERPRETE ("mind"), to ASSUME ("spirit"), to PREJUDICE ("ratio"), to FEAR ("heart", "spirit"), and not to be INTERESTED in ("heart-opened"). Unfortunately those things are the basics of the actual "progress" of western culture of illusionists.




Your disposition tool, for instance, for me is a work of art absolutely. I never could do so.



Thinking about Marc-Paul's vitamin B12.

Do you know the pianist Leopold Godowsky? In the shellac era he made a certain amount of recordings of the classical piano concertos, and Chopin solo music, which are in one line with the big lions of piano playing. But nobody saw him to play a concert in public ever. He described it as a perfect blackout. He sat on the piano chair and didn't know for what the white and black keys are used. Glenn Gould was suffering from the same. He described it as "open nerve ends into the environment". Undoubtely those were great artists.




Bernd.







-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----

Von: "Lynn Walls" <***@comcast.net>

An: <jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net>

Gesendet: Freitag, 20. März 2009 23:23

Betreff: Re: [jOrgan-user] Is it REALLY a MEMORY thing?





Bernd,



I think you are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.  There is a certain musical "Je ne

sais quoi" quality that some people have -- and some simply do not!



If you have it, you can make music flow from your fingers and feet as

effortlessly as you speak your native language.



But if you don't have it, music becomes as difficult as a foreign

language that you never ever seem to get accustomed to.



CLW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Bernd Casper
Hi Lynn,
what a interesting theme. Also hesitating, let me add an European view angle though.
I play everything from the heart within minutes, taking away the sheets long before I can play the notes (something like) secure. After nearly 30 years of being musician I'm more than ever convinced, musical information is not memorized in the head ("ratio"). It's "filed" in the "second brain", the combination of solarplexus and spinal cord called subconsciousness. I assume that's why this is called so amazing and so true "from the heart" in English.
Bernd.
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Gesendet: Freitag, 20. März 2009 21:45
Betreff: [jOrgan-user] Is it REALLY a MEMORY thing? (was: 2 Computer Setup)
... After numerous
years of playing I do not have a single piece of music that I can play
without my sheets. I am missing the memory gene!!!!
Don't feel bad.  I can't believe it's all due to bad memory.
I have the SAME problem.  I cannot play a single piece of music to
completion without SOMETHING on the music rack!
I have at least gotten to the point where it only has to be a melody
line lead sheet with chord annotations.  I can do a halfway decent job
of improvising pedal walks and chords and fills and counter melodies,
even cold on a new piece -- but I am just plain dead-in-the-water
without that written melody line and chord suggestions.
I can play something a hundred times flawlessly with the sheet, yet
still cannot play it through even ONCE without the the sheet!
Is that a "memory" problem -- or just some king of bizarre insecurity?
Lynn
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orgel jeux
2009-03-21 10:47:00 UTC
Permalink
Roy et all, this is getting more and more off-topic! Perhaps Bernd's idea
for a separate chatroom was not so bad at all!

Well, actually I have a strong feeling that I was somewhere in France during
the middle-ages!

Jsut read an interesting story pubished in Currend Biology april 14, online
from march 20, about German inverstigators, among them the wellknown
Isabelle Peretz, who did research with the Mafa, in Africa, people who
previously had no contact with Western music. They scored diiferent music
into the same fields of emotion as we westerns!
So music is somehow related to the same emotions in all mankind, although it
perhaps goes a bit too far to say it is inside a certain physical part of
the body.

Nice wether over here!! Have to do something in the garden!!


Greetings,

Geert
Post by Roy Radford
Hi, Geert,
Explore Yoga...
Maybe you were an organist in one of your past lives!
Have fun,
Roy.
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Is it REALLY a MEMORY thing?
Date: Saturday, 21 March, 2009, 10:11 AM
We are talking about something!! Something I do not ( intellectually) know
much about, but which somehow ( don't know how) I can feel somewhere.
Indeed, Glenn Gould was the one I thought about immediately when you said
these words, Bernd!
Another thing is, that - somehow - I suddenley am in the middle of a
process where " somebody" pulls me inevitably inside the music of
Messaien......
Strange, music......
happy playing,
Geert
Post by Bernd Casper
Lynn,
do you mean that "special something"? But everybody has!!
Among others, things which can block the artistical ability of every human
being steadily are to INTERPRETE ("mind"), to ASSUME ("spirit"), to
PREJUDICE ("ratio"), to FEAR ("heart", "spirit"), and not to be INTERESTED
in ("heart-opened"). Unfortunately those things are the basics of the actual
"progress" of western culture of illusionists.
Your disposition tool, for instance, for me is a work of art absolutely. I
never could do so.
Thinking about Marc-Paul's vitamin B12.
Do you know the pianist Leopold Godowsky? In the shellac era he made a
certain amount of recordings of the classical piano concertos, and Chopin
solo music, which are in one line with the big lions of piano playing. But
nobody saw him to play a concert in public ever. He described it as a
perfect blackout. He sat on the piano chair and didn't know for what the
white and black keys are used. Glenn Gould was suffering from the same. He
described it as "open nerve ends into the environment". Undoubtely those
were great artists.
Bernd.
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Gesendet: Freitag, 20. März 2009 23:23
Betreff: Re: [jOrgan-user] Is it REALLY a MEMORY thing?
Bernd,
I think you are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. There is a certain musical "Je ne
sais quoi" quality that some people have -- and some simply do not!
If you have it, you can make music flow from your fingers and feet as
effortlessly as you speak your native language.
But if you don't have it, music becomes as difficult as a foreign
language that you never ever seem to get accustomed to.
CLW
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Bernd Casper
Hi Lynn,
what a interesting theme. Also hesitating, let me add an European view
angle though.
Post by Bernd Casper
I play everything from the heart within minutes, taking away the sheets
long before I can play the notes (something like) secure. After nearly 30
years of being musician I'm more than ever convinced, musical information is
not memorized in the head ("ratio"). It's "filed" in the "second brain", the
combination of solarplexus and spinal cord called subconsciousness. I assume
that's why this is called so amazing and so true "from the heart" in
English.
Post by Bernd Casper
Bernd.
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Gesendet: Freitag, 20. März 2009 21:45
Betreff: [jOrgan-user] Is it REALLY a MEMORY thing? (was: 2 Computer
Setup)
Post by Bernd Casper
... After numerous
years of playing I do not have a single piece of music that I can play
without my sheets. I am missing the memory gene!!!!
Don't feel bad. I can't believe it's all due to bad memory.
I have the SAME problem. I cannot play a single piece of music to
completion without SOMETHING on the music rack!
I have at least gotten to the point where it only has to be a melody
line lead sheet with chord annotations. I can do a halfway decent job
of improvising pedal walks and chords and fills and counter melodies,
even cold on a new piece -- but I am just plain dead-in-the-water
without that written melody line and chord suggestions.
I can play something a hundred times flawlessly with the sheet, yet
still cannot play it through even ONCE without the the sheet!
Is that a "memory" problem -- or just some king of bizarre insecurity?
Lynn
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Bernd Casper
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development
Post by Bernd Casper
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Roy Radford
2009-03-21 13:05:30 UTC
Permalink
Hi, Geert,

                 Very impressive but, for me, a little of that goes a long way!

... Just my limited musical horizons I guess. South Pacific or The Sound of Music would be more in my line!   

     Have fun,

          Roy.

--- On Sat, 21/3/09, orgel jeux <***@gmail.com> wrote:

From: orgel jeux <***@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Is it REALLY a MEMORY thing?
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Date: Saturday, 21 March, 2009, 12:34 PM

John, nice said.....Only take care if the mathematical brain takes lead!!

http://youtu.be/vtKgOZX3DcU

Look and listen to Cameron Carpenter....



Greetings,

Geert

2009/3/21 John Beach <***@fairpoint.net>








it is, indeed, a memory thing and it is best
exemplified in youth.  That "repetition is the mother of learning" is a
fact and forms the basis of conditioning which is best effectuated, to a
superior degree, in youth.  Between the ages of 14 and 20, I learned four
foreign languages with relative ease.  At the age of 40, I found that
I no longer had the ability to retain in memory lists of vocabulary for
even short periods of time. 
At the age of 41, I took up music and became
proficient enough in about 6 years to be able to play church service
music.  At 62, I am an interim, full-time church organist, doing Sunday
services.  But I can commit nothing to memory!  I have also noticed,
much to my annoyance, that I infrequently draw a complete "blank" right in the
middle of a conversation, as if my thought just suddenly took flight "to worlds
unknown" and I am left speechless, something that few ever thought that one,
gifted with speech, would ever mercifully experience.
 
A few years ago, I had the opportunity to attend an
organ concert given by the chairman of the department of organ at Juilliard
School of Music.  He did a program of Bach works, entirely from
memory.  No sheet music from start to finish and the program was a
90-minute program with intermission.  I believe it is far more difficult to
memorize or commit to memory large works of music than it is to do the same with
the vocabulary of a foreign language.  There are intrinsic "helps" in
language for which there are no comparables in music.  Then too, there is
the additional involvement of the intricate coordination of the hands and feet
in music and this is demanding. 
 
I have seen several of the world's most famous
organists perform and it is obvious that they are gifted with phenomenal
memories.  It may be that those who are mathmatically-inclined or gifted
have a greater ability to
retain large numbers or quantities of related
variables than persons who are more gifted in language or history. 

Nowever, it is also noteworthy that their abiity to
express themselves verbally was equally impressive.
 
John Beach.

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Paul Stratman
2009-03-21 13:31:17 UTC
Permalink
On this day in 1685, Silbermann player Johann Sebastian Bach was born.

Speaking of memory, I recall the story of Sebastian and his older brother.
Sebastian wanted to play from a book of French music (was it Couperin?), but
his brother wouldn't let him. So the boy would sneak into the music room and
reach through the latticework of the music cabinet, carefully roll up and
remove the French music book, and copy it by candle light until he had his
own copy. His brother heard the music, came in, and confiscated the copy.
Later, big brother heard the music again, and went in and saw Sebastian
playing from memory. (Perhaps with a big smile on his face. You can't take
music out of a person's head.)

Playing a piece from memory makes it live. Being a slave to the page can
make performance a mechanical process akin to typing. (Remember early
lessons?) Yet we all have different gifts, and all enjoy music in our own
way.

The birthday boy was known to be a great improviser, too. Another way of
playing from the heart. Sometimes we refer to improvisation as "faking it."
But it's really one of the highest forms of musical "composition" and
performance.

So bring up one of the Silbermanns and play a fugue from memory... or play
Minuet in G from the page. Just enjoy some Bach today. (Or play the Fox
arrangement of Air on the G string on the American Classic. Not pure
baroque, but enjoyable nonetheless.)

Paul
Post by Roy Radford
Hi, Geert,
Very impressive but, for me, a little of that goes a long
way!
... Just my limited musical horizons I guess. South Pacific or The Sound of
Music would be more in my line!
Have fun,
Roy.
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Is it REALLY a MEMORY thing?
Date: Saturday, 21 March, 2009, 12:34 PM
John, nice said.....Only take care if the mathematical brain takes lead!!
http://youtu.be/vtKgOZX3DcU
Look and listen to Cameron Carpenter....
Greetings,
Geert
Post by John Beach
it is, indeed, a memory thing and it is best exemplified in youth. That
"repetition is the mother of learning" is a fact and forms the basis of
conditioning which is best effectuated, to a superior degree, in youth.
Between the ages of 14 and 20, I learned four foreign languages with
relative ease. At the age of 40, I found that I no longer had the ability
to retain in memory lists of vocabulary for even short periods of time.
At the age of 41, I took up music and became proficient enough in about 6
years to be able to play church service music. At 62, I am an interim,
full-time church organist, doing Sunday services. But I can commit nothing
to memory! I have also noticed, much to my annoyance, that I infrequently
draw a complete "blank" right in the middle of a conversation, as if my
thought just suddenly took flight "to worlds unknown" and I am left
speechless, something that few ever thought that one, gifted with speech,
would ever mercifully experience.
A few years ago, I had the opportunity to attend an organ concert given by
the chairman of the department of organ at Juilliard School of Music. He
did a program of Bach works, entirely from memory. No sheet music from
start to finish and the program was a 90-minute program with intermission.
I believe it is far more difficult to memorize or commit to memory large
works of music than it is to do the same with the vocabulary of a foreign
language. There are intrinsic "helps" in language for which there are no
comparables in music. Then too, there is the additional involvement of the
intricate coordination of the hands and feet in music and this is
demanding.
I have seen several of the world's most famous organists perform and it is
obvious that they are gifted with phenomenal memories. It may be that those
who are mathmatically-inclined or gifted have a greater ability to
retain large numbers or quantities of related variables than persons who
are more gifted in language or history.
Nowever, it is also noteworthy that their abiity to express themselves
verbally was equally impressive.
John Beach.
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__________________________________
Pastor Paul C. Stratman
St. Stephen's Ev. Lutheran Church (WELS)
Beaver Dam, Wisconsin
http://www.saintstephen.org
***@saintstephen.org
***@gmail.com
orgel jeux
2009-03-21 18:58:36 UTC
Permalink
Roy, I did not mean the repertoire; it is the way this guy interprets, or
better say he does'nt; it is just technical superiority that is displayed.

I also play these musical selections; in fact in my youth I bought a lot of
american books that contain these musical-selections for Hammond organ.

happy plaing,

Geert
Post by Roy Radford
Hi, Geert,
Very impressive but, for me, a little of that goes a long
way!
... Just my limited musical horizons I guess. South Pacific or The Sound of
Music would be more in my line!
Have fun,
Roy.
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Is it REALLY a MEMORY thing?
Date: Saturday, 21 March, 2009, 12:34 PM
John, nice said.....Only take care if the mathematical brain takes lead!!
http://youtu.be/vtKgOZX3DcU
Look and listen to Cameron Carpenter....
Greetings,
Geert
Post by John Beach
it is, indeed, a memory thing and it is best exemplified in youth. That
"repetition is the mother of learning" is a fact and forms the basis of
conditioning which is best effectuated, to a superior degree, in youth.
Between the ages of 14 and 20, I learned four foreign languages with
relative ease. At the age of 40, I found that I no longer had the ability
to retain in memory lists of vocabulary for even short periods of time.
At the age of 41, I took up music and became proficient enough in about 6
years to be able to play church service music. At 62, I am an interim,
full-time church organist, doing Sunday services. But I can commit nothing
to memory! I have also noticed, much to my annoyance, that I infrequently
draw a complete "blank" right in the middle of a conversation, as if my
thought just suddenly took flight "to worlds unknown" and I am left
speechless, something that few ever thought that one, gifted with speech,
would ever mercifully experience.
A few years ago, I had the opportunity to attend an organ concert given by
the chairman of the department of organ at Juilliard School of Music. He
did a program of Bach works, entirely from memory. No sheet music from
start to finish and the program was a 90-minute program with intermission.
I believe it is far more difficult to memorize or commit to memory large
works of music than it is to do the same with the vocabulary of a foreign
language. There are intrinsic "helps" in language for which there are no
comparables in music. Then too, there is the additional involvement of the
intricate coordination of the hands and feet in music and this is
demanding.
I have seen several of the world's most famous organists perform and it is
obvious that they are gifted with phenomenal memories. It may be that those
who are mathmatically-inclined or gifted have a greater ability to
retain large numbers or quantities of related variables than persons who
are more gifted in language or history.
Nowever, it is also noteworthy that their abiity to express themselves
verbally was equally impressive.
John Beach.
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Paul Stratman
2009-03-21 19:26:56 UTC
Permalink
See Cameron Carpenter give a tour of one of the newest M & O organs,



More pictures here:

http://www.marshallogletree.com/middle_photos/middle_photos.html

and more info here:

http://www.marshallogletree.com/pdf/Middle_Collegiate.pdf
Post by orgel jeux
Roy, I did not mean the repertoire; it is the way this guy interprets, or
better say he does'nt; it is just technical superiority that is displayed.
I also play these musical selections; in fact in my youth I bought a lot of
american books that contain these musical-selections for Hammond organ.
happy plaing,
Geert
Post by Roy Radford
Hi, Geert,
Very impressive but, for me, a little of that goes a long
way!
... Just my limited musical horizons I guess. South Pacific or The Sound
of Music would be more in my line!
Have fun,
Roy.
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Is it REALLY a MEMORY thing?
Date: Saturday, 21 March, 2009, 12:34 PM
John, nice said.....Only take care if the mathematical brain takes lead!!
http://youtu.be/vtKgOZX3DcU
Look and listen to Cameron Carpenter....
Greetings,
Geert
Post by John Beach
it is, indeed, a memory thing and it is best exemplified in youth.
That "repetition is the mother of learning" is a fact and forms the basis of
conditioning which is best effectuated, to a superior degree, in youth.
Between the ages of 14 and 20, I learned four foreign languages with
relative ease. At the age of 40, I found that I no longer had the ability
to retain in memory lists of vocabulary for even short periods of time.
At the age of 41, I took up music and became proficient enough in about 6
years to be able to play church service music. At 62, I am an interim,
full-time church organist, doing Sunday services. But I can commit nothing
to memory! I have also noticed, much to my annoyance, that I infrequently
draw a complete "blank" right in the middle of a conversation, as if my
thought just suddenly took flight "to worlds unknown" and I am left
speechless, something that few ever thought that one, gifted with speech,
would ever mercifully experience.
A few years ago, I had the opportunity to attend an organ concert given
by the chairman of the department of organ at Juilliard School of Music. He
did a program of Bach works, entirely from memory. No sheet music from
start to finish and the program was a 90-minute program with intermission.
I believe it is far more difficult to memorize or commit to memory large
works of music than it is to do the same with the vocabulary of a foreign
language. There are intrinsic "helps" in language for which there are no
comparables in music. Then too, there is the additional involvement of the
intricate coordination of the hands and feet in music and this is
demanding.
I have seen several of the world's most famous organists perform and it
is obvious that they are gifted with phenomenal memories. It may be that
those who are mathmatically-inclined or gifted have a greater ability to
retain large numbers or quantities of related variables than persons who
are more gifted in language or history.
Nowever, it is also noteworthy that their abiity to express themselves
verbally was equally impressive.
John Beach.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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St. Stephen's Ev. Lutheran Church (WELS)
Beaver Dam, Wisconsin
http://www.saintstephen.org
***@saintstephen.org
***@gmail.com
orgel jeux
2009-03-21 19:37:26 UTC
Permalink
Absolutely terrible!!!

Just come home from a organ -concert on a decent organ originally built in
1896 and very careful restored; we here in europe do not understand these
things from over the atlantic....

Do I speak for myself alone here, or are there others who stand by me??

Geert ( happily Cameron did not play on this example!)
Post by Paul Stratman
See Cameron Carpenter give a tour of one of the newest M & O organs,
http://youtu.be/4GTMtDYAzWg
http://www.marshallogletree.com/middle_photos/middle_photos.html
http://www.marshallogletree.com/pdf/Middle_Collegiate.pdf
Roy, I did not mean the repertoire; it is the way this guy interprets, or
Post by orgel jeux
better say he does'nt; it is just technical superiority that is displayed.
I also play these musical selections; in fact in my youth I bought a lot
of american books that contain these musical-selections for Hammond organ.
happy plaing,
Geert
Post by Roy Radford
Hi, Geert,
Very impressive but, for me, a little of that goes a
long way!
... Just my limited musical horizons I guess. South Pacific or The Sound
of Music would be more in my line!
Have fun,
Roy.
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Is it REALLY a MEMORY thing?
Date: Saturday, 21 March, 2009, 12:34 PM
John, nice said.....Only take care if the mathematical brain takes lead!!
http://youtu.be/vtKgOZX3DcU
Look and listen to Cameron Carpenter....
Greetings,
Geert
Post by John Beach
it is, indeed, a memory thing and it is best exemplified in youth.
That "repetition is the mother of learning" is a fact and forms the basis of
conditioning which is best effectuated, to a superior degree, in youth.
Between the ages of 14 and 20, I learned four foreign languages with
relative ease. At the age of 40, I found that I no longer had the ability
to retain in memory lists of vocabulary for even short periods of time.
At the age of 41, I took up music and became proficient enough in about
6 years to be able to play church service music. At 62, I am an interim,
full-time church organist, doing Sunday services. But I can commit nothing
to memory! I have also noticed, much to my annoyance, that I infrequently
draw a complete "blank" right in the middle of a conversation, as if my
thought just suddenly took flight "to worlds unknown" and I am left
speechless, something that few ever thought that one, gifted with speech,
would ever mercifully experience.
A few years ago, I had the opportunity to attend an organ concert given
by the chairman of the department of organ at Juilliard School of Music. He
did a program of Bach works, entirely from memory. No sheet music from
start to finish and the program was a 90-minute program with intermission.
I believe it is far more difficult to memorize or commit to memory large
works of music than it is to do the same with the vocabulary of a foreign
language. There are intrinsic "helps" in language for which there are no
comparables in music. Then too, there is the additional involvement of the
intricate coordination of the hands and feet in music and this is
demanding.
I have seen several of the world's most famous organists perform and it
is obvious that they are gifted with phenomenal memories. It may be that
those who are mathmatically-inclined or gifted have a greater ability to
retain large numbers or quantities of related variables than persons who
are more gifted in language or history.
Nowever, it is also noteworthy that their abiity to express themselves
verbally was equally impressive.
John Beach.
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Paul Stratman
2009-03-21 21:06:03 UTC
Permalink
Sorry you didn't like the Marshall and Ogletree demo.

The world of the pipe organ (real and virtual) is very broad. And you're
right. There are many things we can learn even from instruments (and styles)
we don't like.

Thanks for "Ich ruf zu dir."

Paul
Post by M***@aol.com
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Pastor Paul C. Stratman
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Beaver Dam, Wisconsin
http://www.saintstephen.org
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orgel jeux
2009-03-21 22:00:06 UTC
Permalink
Paul, this organ is one of the smallest that Cavaille Coll made; it is in a
small village called Nunspeet, only some 10 miles form where I live. There
is a sound-download also. Can these machines over there sound as well?? I
hope so......

http://lammert.boeve.org/site4.html

Greetings,

Geert
Post by Paul Stratman
Sorry you didn't like the Marshall and Ogletree demo.
The world of the pipe organ (real and virtual) is very broad. And you're
right. There are many things we can learn even from instruments (and styles)
we don't like.
Thanks for "Ich ruf zu dir."
Paul
Post by M***@aol.com
__________________________________
Post by Paul Stratman
Pastor Paul C. Stratman
St. Stephen's Ev. Lutheran Church (WELS)
Beaver Dam, Wisconsin
http://www.saintstephen.org
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Paul Stratman
2009-03-22 23:47:19 UTC
Permalink
Geert wrote:

* Can these machines over there sound as well?? I hope so......*

Here is a link to info on the organ I hear every Sunday. (Once in a while I
get to play it.)

http://www.berghausorgan.com/slideshow_10/instruments.html

It's a 2 manual in the American Classic style. It is a wonder. It's
powerful, yet warm. It seems to breathe with the congregation. The reeds
lean toward the romantic. The Schalmei is really more of an Oboe.

My virtual ACO's Great Principal, Pedal/Swell Faggoto, Flauto Traverso,
Blockflute, Salcional and its celeste are modeled after the pipe sounds from
the Berghaus organ. The Pommer and Rohrfloete have a wonderful breathyness
to them.

The ACO as a chameleon? In my opinion this Berghaus American Classic can
play all music effectively. The mixtures aren't as bright or sharp as a
Silbermann, but it can touch the heart. The Principals have a singing
quality and a warmth similar to the principals in the Nunspeet soundsample.

Paul
Post by orgel jeux
Paul, this organ is one of the smallest that Cavaille Coll made; it is in a
small village called Nunspeet, only some 10 miles form where I live. There
is a sound-download also. Can these machines over there sound as well?? I
hope so......
http://lammert.boeve.org/site4.html
Greetings,
Geert
Post by Paul Stratman
Sorry you didn't like the Marshall and Ogletree demo.
The world of the pipe organ (real and virtual) is very broad. And you're
right. There are many things we can learn even from instruments (and styles)
we don't like.
Thanks for "Ich ruf zu dir."
Paul
Post by M***@aol.com
__________________________________
Post by Paul Stratman
Pastor Paul C. Stratman
St. Stephen's Ev. Lutheran Church (WELS)
Beaver Dam, Wisconsin
http://www.saintstephen.org
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orgel jeux
2009-03-23 09:06:15 UTC
Permalink
Paul, thanks for the very nice link. The physical layout of the front is
really very nice; it seems very wide; the sound will certainly be spread out
vwide also. It reminds me of the ( much bigger of course) organ in the
London Royal Festival Hall, which has pipes spread out from left to right
wall.
A pity that there is no sound sample.

http://www.keilholtz.nl/basiliek/orgel/dispositie.htm Last saturday I went
to an organ concerto on the instrument listed here. It is built in 1896 by a
Dutch organ-builder who named Cavaille-Coll as his tutor. Although he used
pneumatics and console from a German organ factory ( during that time there
were big organ " factories" in germany who made sort of pre-fabricated organ
parts) he ordered his reeds from Mazure in Paris and his intonation
craftmanship was very wellknown in those years. He also made the organ in
the wellknown Royal ConcertGebouw at Amsterdam.

Without intending to doubt in any way the qualities of American
organbuilders, it is obvious, that there are only a few contemporary great
organbuilders that can really get close to what was done in the past ages of
the great organbuilders.
We cannot help it that we happen to have a lot of these old instruments over
here in Europe, which gives us the possibility to compare and judge; besides
it has of course also influenced our taste......

To conclude, I want to point towards the website of Stephen Bicknell,
www.stephenbicknell.org , who was also a great connoisseur of the French
Romantic organs, and designed the organ of St Ignatius Loyola in New York,
as an example of contemporary organ-designing, and to show you, that I do
not dislike American organs just by the fact that they are situated in your
country...!!


Happy playing,

Geert
Post by Paul Stratman
* Can these machines over there sound as well?? I hope so......*
Here is a link to info on the organ I hear every Sunday. (Once in a while I
get to play it.)
http://www.berghausorgan.com/slideshow_10/instruments.html
It's a 2 manual in the American Classic style. It is a wonder. It's
powerful, yet warm. It seems to breathe with the congregation. The reeds
lean toward the romantic. The Schalmei is really more of an Oboe.
My virtual ACO's Great Principal, Pedal/Swell Faggoto, Flauto Traverso,
Blockflute, Salcional and its celeste are modeled after the pipe sounds from
the Berghaus organ. The Pommer and Rohrfloete have a wonderful breathyness
to them.
The ACO as a chameleon? In my opinion this Berghaus American Classic can
play all music effectively. The mixtures aren't as bright or sharp as a
Silbermann, but it can touch the heart. The Principals have a singing
quality and a warmth similar to the principals in the Nunspeet soundsample.
Paul
Post by orgel jeux
Paul, this organ is one of the smallest that Cavaille Coll made; it is in
a small village called Nunspeet, only some 10 miles form where I live. There
is a sound-download also. Can these machines over there sound as well?? I
hope so......
http://lammert.boeve.org/site4.html
Greetings,
Geert
Post by Paul Stratman
Sorry you didn't like the Marshall and Ogletree demo.
The world of the pipe organ (real and virtual) is very broad. And you're
right. There are many things we can learn even from instruments (and styles)
we don't like.
Thanks for "Ich ruf zu dir."
Paul
Post by M***@aol.com
__________________________________
Post by Paul Stratman
Pastor Paul C. Stratman
St. Stephen's Ev. Lutheran Church (WELS)
Beaver Dam, Wisconsin
http://www.saintstephen.org
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Paul Stratman
2009-03-23 13:02:33 UTC
Permalink
Along with the memory topic, there's this. Interaction between player and
instrument.

I've often wondered, "Am I playing the music, or is the music playing me?"
The same is true of the instruments. "Am I playing the Silbermann, the ACO,
the C-C, or are they playing me." How much does the instrument influence
you. Bernd once noticed that I held chords longer on the Silbermann with
historic temperaments. I liked to hear the mild dissonances and sense of
motion the temperaments give. Each instrument has a different feel, and
perhaps, a different personality.

Geert, perhaps that's part of your love for European instruments and dislike
for the eclectic American ones. Too much variety seems to rob the instrument
of a distinct personality.

I have seen many bad, colorless pipe organs. I used to play one with three
ranks, all on one chest, unified and duplexed into about 20 stops on two
manuals and pedal. The pipes were in a closet with a 5 or 6 ft square hole
in the front and swell shutters. The only "reed" was a "Synthetic Oboe,"
with an 8' string and a 2 2/3' Flute which wasn't tuned properly because it
was borrowed from an 8' rank. As far as I know, nobody is building organs
like that anymore. At the time those were small for the space allowed and
affordable. Still colorless.

Paul
Post by orgel jeux
Paul, thanks for the very nice link. The physical layout of the front is
really very nice; it seems very wide; the sound will certainly be spread out
vwide also. It reminds me of the ( much bigger of course) organ in the
London Royal Festival Hall, which has pipes spread out from left to right
wall.
A pity that there is no sound sample.
http://www.keilholtz.nl/basiliek/orgel/dispositie.htm Last saturday I
went to an organ concerto on the instrument listed here. It is built in 1896
by a Dutch organ-builder who named Cavaille-Coll as his tutor. Although he
used pneumatics and console from a German organ factory ( during that time
there were big organ " factories" in germany who made sort of pre-fabricated
organ parts) he ordered his reeds from Mazure in Paris and his intonation
craftmanship was very wellknown in those years. He also made the organ in
the wellknown Royal ConcertGebouw at Amsterdam.
Without intending to doubt in any way the qualities of American
organbuilders, it is obvious, that there are only a few contemporary great
organbuilders that can really get close to what was done in the past ages of
the great organbuilders.
We cannot help it that we happen to have a lot of these old instruments
over here in Europe, which gives us the possibility to compare and judge;
besides it has of course also influenced our taste......
To conclude, I want to point towards the website of Stephen Bicknell,
www.stephenbicknell.org , who was also a great connoisseur of the French
Romantic organs, and designed the organ of St Ignatius Loyola in New York,
as an example of contemporary organ-designing, and to show you, that I do
not dislike American organs just by the fact that they are situated in your
country...!!
Happy playing,
Geert
Post by Paul Stratman
* Can these machines over there sound as well?? I hope so......*
Here is a link to info on the organ I hear every Sunday. (Once in a while
I get to play it.)
http://www.berghausorgan.com/slideshow_10/instruments.html
It's a 2 manual in the American Classic style. It is a wonder. It's
powerful, yet warm. It seems to breathe with the congregation. The reeds
lean toward the romantic. The Schalmei is really more of an Oboe.
My virtual ACO's Great Principal, Pedal/Swell Faggoto, Flauto Traverso,
Blockflute, Salcional and its celeste are modeled after the pipe sounds from
the Berghaus organ. The Pommer and Rohrfloete have a wonderful breathyness
to them.
The ACO as a chameleon? In my opinion this Berghaus American Classic can
play all music effectively. The mixtures aren't as bright or sharp as a
Silbermann, but it can touch the heart. The Principals have a singing
quality and a warmth similar to the principals in the Nunspeet soundsample.
Paul
Post by orgel jeux
Paul, this organ is one of the smallest that Cavaille Coll made; it is in
a small village called Nunspeet, only some 10 miles form where I live. There
is a sound-download also. Can these machines over there sound as well?? I
hope so......
http://lammert.boeve.org/site4.html
Greetings,
Geert
Post by Paul Stratman
Sorry you didn't like the Marshall and Ogletree demo.
The world of the pipe organ (real and virtual) is very broad. And you're
right. There are many things we can learn even from instruments (and styles)
we don't like.
Thanks for "Ich ruf zu dir."
Paul
Post by M***@aol.com
__________________________________
Post by Paul Stratman
Pastor Paul C. Stratman
St. Stephen's Ev. Lutheran Church (WELS)
Beaver Dam, Wisconsin
http://www.saintstephen.org
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Pastor Paul C. Stratman
St. Stephen's Ev. Lutheran Church (WELS)
Beaver Dam, Wisconsin
http://www.saintstephen.org
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Paul Kealy
2009-03-22 06:12:18 UTC
Permalink
How to install and configure 4 SoundBlaster soundcards
to play 16 discrete amp outputs to sixteen channels to
specific loudspeaker cabinets each playing a separate
MIDI rank of pipes/percussions/effects.

I have shrunk the tutorial file small enough to fit
as a download from my website by eliminating the
graphic screenshots and increasing explanatory text.

There are two tutorials:

(1) installing two SoundBlaster cards
    in a single computer

(2) installing four SoundBlaster cards for 16 outputs
    in a single computer.

These are the simple and inexpensive SoundBlaster Live! cards
available eBay or used/rebuilt/warranted from Creative.

Several have contacted me asking how I did it.
My thorough documentation is at:

TheatreOrgans.com/StentorVox

Click on "Links and Downloads"
for the free downloads page

PK
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