Discussion:
[ANN] jOrgan 3.13 beta 6 for Windoze 64
(too old to reply)
Dan Dietzer
2011-04-08 00:35:21 UTC
Permalink
Available for download.

Also, I am working on compiling Fluidsynth with Portaudio/ASIO

Regards,
Dan
Marco Francesco
2011-04-08 01:21:36 UTC
Permalink
Could not find the file for d/l. Where is it Dan?

Marco

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Dan Dietzer
2011-04-08 02:16:53 UTC
Permalink
https://sourceforge.net/projects/jorgan/files/jorgan-installer/3.13/
Post by Marco Francesco
Could not find the file for d/l. Where is it Dan?
Marco
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Dan Dietzer
2011-04-08 02:30:28 UTC
Permalink
I just noticed the file status is still pending and not released for
downloading.
Post by Dan Dietzer
https://sourceforge.net/projects/jorgan/files/jorgan-installer/3.13/
Post by Marco Francesco
Could not find the file for d/l. Where is it Dan?
Marco
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Marco Francesco
2011-04-08 11:53:46 UTC
Permalink
Dan,

Something's wrong with this version. The 86 bit version runs fine. Playing
the same midi file on the same Sagrada Familia organ (with the added reverb
and chorus) but with jOrgan 64 bit version is producing what sounds like the
whole system is overloaded and the organ is hoarse; it does not play well at
all. The piece played is unrecognizable and sounds like a roaring lion!

Marco

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Marco Francesco
2011-04-08 02:41:26 UTC
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Ok I found that but it's not your 64 bit version!

Marco

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Dan Dietzer
2011-04-08 03:01:03 UTC
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For some reason Sourceforge has not made the file available yet.

Dan
Post by Marco Francesco
Ok I found that but it's not your 64 bit version!
Marco
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Panos Ghekas
2011-04-08 05:18:40 UTC
Permalink
Hi Dan,
GREAT NEWS ! I wish you'll make it through . Also Jack devs workin' on getting jack for windows x64 !
Let the fun begin !Panos

--- Óôéò Ðáñ., 08/04/11, ï/ç Dan Dietzer <***@bex.net> Ýãñáøå:



Also, I am working on compiling Fluidsynth with Portaudio/ASIO
Marco Rizzo
2011-04-08 19:33:51 UTC
Permalink
Dear sirs,



first of all I would like to thank all the developers
that allowed all of us to enjoy jOrgan. I am not a professional organist but
I've had the opportunity to play many different and beautiful organs in this
way.



In some cases fluidsynt presents some latency (specifically I have noted it
with the Silbermann Frauenkirche). It is my understanding that using a
device different from fluidsynth, like asio4all or other, we can strongly
reduce this problem. Can you please let me know were I can find simple
instructions to "substitute" asio4all (or other free device) to fluidsynth?



I am not a computer expert either, I can just add that my computer is 4GB
rom, running on XP pro.





Thank you very much for your kind help



Best regards



Marco Rizzo
orgel jeux
2011-04-08 20:59:06 UTC
Permalink
Marco,

We use FS as a software syntheszer, whch is very usable for us, but it does
not use ASIO drivers, but Direct Sound.

ASIO4ALL is only a ASIO driver; it needs a soft-or hardware audio device.

The latency in the Silbermann is not particularly higher than in other
models; the model that needs the most resources is the Sagrada from Bernd.

It is just a matter of what soundcard or device you use, and what are the PC
specs. I can play them with 4 to 6 buffers of 256 bit/s which gives a very
playable short latency.

So pls find out how low you can go on your system with amount of buffers and
buiffersize, as they are the parameters that will influence your latency.

My own experie3nce is, that the sound device has more influence on buffer
settings than the processor speed. I would recommend a good quality external
( USB of Firewire) or PCI ( internal) sound device.


Greetings,

Geert
Post by Marco Rizzo
Dear sirs,
first of all I would like to thank all the developers
that allowed all of us to enjoy jOrgan. I am not a professional organist but
I’ve had the opportunity to play many different and beautiful organs in this
way.
In some cases fluidsynt presents some latency (specifically I have noted it
with the Silbermann Frauenkirche). It is my understanding that using a
device different from fluidsynth, like asio4all or other, we can strongly
reduce this problem. Can you please let me know were I can find simple
instructions to “substitute” asio4all (or other free device) to fluidsynth?
I am not a computer expert either, I can just add that my computer is 4GB
rom, running on XP pro.
Thank you very much for your kind help
Best regards
Marco Rizzo
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Marco Rizzo
2011-04-10 16:29:39 UTC
Permalink
Panos Ghekas
2011-04-08 05:26:48 UTC
Permalink
Marco, Dan,
I just got it here :
http://sourceforge.net/projects/jorgan/files/jorgan-installer/3.13/jOrgan-3.13-beta6-installer-amd64.exe/download

Have fun Panos
--- Óôéò Ðáñ., 08/04/11, ï/ç Dan Dietzer <***@bex.net> Ýãñáøå:







For some reason Sourceforge has
not made the file available yet.



On 4/7/2011 10:41 PM, Marco Francesco wrote:

Ok I found that but it's not your 64 bit version!
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Erik De Schrijver
2011-04-08 07:58:28 UTC
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
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<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">
Hello Don,<br>
<br>
That would be very welcome indeed .<br>
<br>
Looking foreward to it very much.<br>
<br>
All the best.<br>
<br>
Erik.<br>
-------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Dan Dietzer wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:***@bex.net" type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="content-type"
content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1">
<font size="+1"><font face="Georgia"><br>
Also, I am working on compiling Fluidsynth with Portaudio/ASIO<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Dan<br>
</font></font>
<pre wrap="">
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BCA
2011-04-08 08:09:46 UTC
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<...I am working on compiling Fluidsynth with Portaudio/ASIO...>

Thank you, Dan :-) If you got that alright, please include some manual, if
possible.

Regards
Bernd.

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Erik De Schrijver
2011-04-08 08:23:59 UTC
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Panos Ghekas
2011-04-08 22:19:42 UTC
Permalink
Hi Marco !
Asio and Fs are not together yet. Dan is workin' on this one.It was my wish from the very first time I posted to this list....
But if you like to see how jOrgan can control powerful samplers that use Asio4all, take a look on Jean-Pool's and mine hybrid dispositions for UVI workstation and SampleTank (Milano isn't it?) : Classic with ST and two for UVI, Bohemian1 and GBO essai.Also go to John Reimer's site and try his Earlwoods with sfz .All these models have instructions included to show you the way to do it. John's are more extensive and detailed on his site.The links to get them are on jOrgan wiki - dispositions.
Another option to get Asio with jOrgan is to use its other engine : Linuxsampler extension.There is a topic here (the Linuxsampler case) where David gives a step by step tutorial and plenty of advice on how to.
If you find all those a bit complicated.... then wait (and wish) for Dan's success !In the meantime......
Have fun !Panos


--- Στις Παρ., 08/04/11, ο/η Marco Rizzo <***@libero.it> έγραψε: 

In some cases fluidsynt
presents some latency (specifically I have noted it with the Silbermann
Frauenkirche). It is my understanding that using a device different from
fluidsynth, like asio4all or other, we can strongly reduce this problem. Can
you please let me know were I can find simple instructions to “substitute”
asio4all (or other free device) to fluidsynth?

  
John Reimer
2011-04-09 00:57:44 UTC
Permalink
Unfortunately I have not provided SFZ soundfonts/dispositions with the latest
releases, Earlwood Organ No's 1c and 3a, 3b, but only Fluidsynth versions.
If there is a request for SFZ versions, I shall do the fairly modest work
involved. The versions mentioned are the ones with the new hybrid samples,
and effectively replace the earlier versions, which however are still on my
website (http://home.exetel.com.au/reimerorgans/jOrgan_Index_Page.htm).

Yesterday I discovered a referencing error in the 1c, 3a and 3b: the Swell
Rohrflute 8 is incorrectly referenced to (from?) the Soundfont 2, whereas it
should be Soundfont 1. It is a simple matter for users to correct this in
the Construct mode. I shall upload corrected versions of the download
packages before long.

More to the point is to announce that I have finished upgrading the samples,
with excellent hybrid samples produced for most of the Positive flue stops
in the 3a and 3c, and for new samples (mainly hybrid) for the Swell Viole de
Gambe 8, Voix Celestes 8 and Trompette 8, as used in the 1c, 3a and 3b. The
new Positive samples will also find their way into an upgraded version of
the Model 2. I have yet to incorporate all these changes, which include a
comprehensive working over of the tuning arrangements of most notes, into
the soundfonts and to upload them to the website.

I am delighted with the results of all this sampling work, and I hope that
it will not be long before I can share those results with the jOrgan
community. I'm resisting the temptation to rush it, and since my wife and I
shall be away for part of April, it will probably have to wait now until
early May.

My breakfasts some days are spent with Bach MIDI files in the background
using the new sounds. Words fail me to describe the pleasure which jOrgan
and even Fluidsynth (with no Chorus and with separate Reverb) are now
bringing me.

Best wishes to all jOrgan users,
John Reimer
Post by Panos Ghekas
Hi Marco !
Asio and Fs are not together yet. Dan is workin' on this one.It was my
wish from the very first time I posted to this list....
But if you like to see how jOrgan can control powerful samplers that use
Asio4all, take a look on Jean-Pool's and mine hybrid dispositions for UVI
workstation and SampleTank (Milano isn't it?) : Classic with ST and two
for UVI, Bohemian1 and GBO essai.Also go to John Reimer's site and try his
Earlwoods with sfz .All these models have instructions included to show
you the way to do it. John's are more extensive and detailed on his
site.The links to get them are on jOrgan wiki - dispositions.
Linuxsampler extension.There is a topic here (the Linuxsampler case) where
David gives a step by step tutorial and plenty of advice on how to.
If you find all those a bit complicated.... then wait (and wish) for Dan's
success !In the meantime......
Have fun !Panos
έγραψε: 
In some cases fluidsynt
presents some latency (specifically I have noted it with the Silbermann
Frauenkirche). It is my understanding that using a device different from
fluidsynth, like asio4all or other, we can strongly reduce this problem. Can
you please let me know were I can find simple instructions to “substitute”
asio4all (or other free device) to fluidsynth?
  
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John Reimer
2011-04-09 10:20:56 UTC
Permalink
I apologize for any confusion this incorrect statement may have caused. The
referencing error exists only in Earlwood Organs 3a and 3b. Model 1c
contains only one soundfont, so there is no way of getting that wrong.

John Reimer
Post by John Reimer
Yesterday I discovered a referencing error in the 1c, 3a and 3b: the Swell
Rohrflute 8 is incorrectly referenced to (from?) the Soundfont 2, whereas
it should be Soundfont 1.
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Marco Francesco
2011-04-09 11:40:01 UTC
Permalink
Hi John,

I was just going to mention that . Having said that, the rank play well with
the second soundfont! Why should its reference be changed?

I have noticed that the output from your organs using the latest jOrgan beta
sound very weak with a number of ranks almost imperceptible (including the
Swell Rohrflute 8) irrespective of which of the two soundfonts is used for
it.

With the reverb/ chorus settings removed from the actual interface of
jOrgan, all organs will have to undergo upgrading since otherwise there is
no way of adjusting the sound output and some if not most do need a bit of
tweeking here and there eg to reduce those that are to loud or adding a
touch of reverb to otherwise dull organs (not that they are bad in
themselves but I love that bit of echo that replicates the interior of a big
church or cathedral, the natural traditional home of real organs).

Without wishing to sound too critical, this feature change is somewhat
disappointing limiting what can be played unless auto upgrading of VPOs or
actual laborious manual modification is undertaken.

I strongly believe Chorus and Reverb should be a property of jOrgan not the
individual organs just like reverb is an acoustic characteristic of the
church not the instrument it houses!

Marco

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John Reimer
2011-04-09 12:03:07 UTC
Permalink
Marco,
Thank you for your interest. The reference should be changed, because what
you are hearing, without the change, is the Gedacht 8' on the Positive! It
was a co-incidence that both these 8' flutes, which belong to differing
soundfonts, have the same preset number. If a stop of some other tone
quality or pitch had been triggered, then the error would not have gone
unnoticed for so long.

These latest Earlwood Organs should not be used with the latest jOrgan beta
- only with jOrgan 3.11 or 3.12. When I release the changes in May, then
perhaps by then the 3.13 will be a final version, in which case I shall have
to learn what changes are needed for that version, and include those
changes.

John Reimer
the rank play well with the second soundfont! Why should its reference be
changed?
I have noticed that the output from your organs using the latest jOrgan
beta sound very weak with a number of ranks almost imperceptible
(including the Swell Rohrflute 8) irrespective of which of the two
soundfonts is used for it.
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Sven Meier
2011-04-09 12:53:13 UTC
Permalink
Hi Marco,
Post by Marco Francesco
all organs will have to undergo upgrading
if I'm in the mood I'll enhance the automatic conversion to add the new
elements.
Post by Marco Francesco
I strongly believe Chorus and Reverb should be a property of jOrgan not the
individual organs just like reverb is an acoustic characteristic of the
church not the instrument it houses!
It's highly unlikely that we'll do without the new chorus and reverb elements. I'll have to admit though, that your point is well taken :).

Best regards

Sven
Post by Marco Francesco
Hi John,
I was just going to mention that . Having said that, the rank play well with
the second soundfont! Why should its reference be changed?
I have noticed that the output from your organs using the latest jOrgan beta
sound very weak with a number of ranks almost imperceptible (including the
Swell Rohrflute 8) irrespective of which of the two soundfonts is used for
it.
With the reverb/ chorus settings removed from the actual interface of
jOrgan, all organs will have to undergo upgrading since otherwise there is
no way of adjusting the sound output and some if not most do need a bit of
tweeking here and there eg to reduce those that are to loud or adding a
touch of reverb to otherwise dull organs (not that they are bad in
themselves but I love that bit of echo that replicates the interior of a big
church or cathedral, the natural traditional home of real organs).
Without wishing to sound too critical, this feature change is somewhat
disappointing limiting what can be played unless auto upgrading of VPOs or
actual laborious manual modification is undertaken.
I strongly believe Chorus and Reverb should be a property of jOrgan not the
individual organs just like reverb is an acoustic characteristic of the
church not the instrument it houses!
Marco
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_______________________________________________
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Marco Francesco
2011-04-09 14:14:35 UTC
Permalink
Hi Sven, (& John & Roy),

I certainly DO want the Reverb and Chorus. I DO! I DO! I DO!!!

My point, which I think you did grasp, thankfully, is that R&C should be on
the jOrgan GUI and modifiable from there NOT installed individually on each
and every disposition. There is no point in the latter. It inflates the size
of the VPO unnecessarily, (me thinks)!

R&C are features "common to all" and should be turned on or off or changed
according to one's moods and tastes or circumstances irrespective which
organ is loaded. The only thing a disposition creator should do is to make
sure the sf2 file is adapted to be able to respond to the R&C by adding the
appropriate values in the General Presets.

I hope this will be the path jOrgan development will take.

Marco

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Jacques LEVY
2011-04-09 15:01:01 UTC
Permalink
Hi Marco,
R&C should be on the jOrgan GUI and modifiable from there NOT installed
individually on each and every disposition
Not at all my opinion !
R&C should continue to be installed and settable individually on each and
every disposition
according to one's moods and tastes or circumstances and also according to
each loaded disposition.

A disposition creator should make sure the sf2 file is adapted to be able to
respond to the R&C, I agree,
but most often, the appropriate values of R&C (and Gain) must be adjusted
and fine tuned on the console by the user according to his installation and
his tastes.

Jacques


----- Original Message -----
From: "Marco Francesco" <***@gmail.com>
To: <jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 4:14 PM
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] R: latency - how to use asio4all insteadof
fluidsynth
Hi Sven, (& John & Roy),
I certainly DO want the Reverb and Chorus. I DO! I DO! I DO!!!
My point, which I think you did grasp, thankfully, is that R&C should be on
the jOrgan GUI and modifiable from there NOT installed individually on each
and every disposition. There is no point in the latter. It inflates the size
of the VPO unnecessarily, (me thinks)!
R&C are features "common to all" and should be turned on or off or changed
according to one's moods and tastes or circumstances irrespective which
organ is loaded. The only thing a disposition creator should do is to make
sure the sf2 file is adapted to be able to respond to the R&C by adding the
appropriate values in the General Presets.
I hope this will be the path jOrgan development will take.
Marco
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Marco Francesco
2011-04-09 18:02:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jacques LEVY
Not at all my opinion !
R&C should continue to be installed and settable individually on each and
every disposition according to one's moods and tastes or circumstances and
also according to
each loaded disposition.

Having the R&C on jOrgan should not impede this. My argument is whether it
is necessary to have these "common functions" on each and every disposition
created!
Sven Meier
2011-04-09 19:03:03 UTC
Permalink
Hi Marco,
we still do not have "Gain" which we had before 3.13
yes, we do. Select a Fluidsynth sound element, look into the properties view and voila: "gain".

Hope this helps
Sven
Post by Jacques LEVY
Not at all my opinion !
R&C should continue to be installed and settable individually on each and
every disposition according to one's moods and tastes or circumstances and
also according to
each loaded disposition.
Having the R&C on jOrgan should not impede this. My argument is whether it
is necessary to have these "common functions" on each and every disposition
created!
Lynn Walls
2011-04-09 20:24:00 UTC
Permalink
And before someone makes the suggestion: we do NOT need a jOrgan "gain" element that can
be placed on a Console. Re-setting the gain value occasionally in Construct mode provides
more than adequate flexibility for this adjustment. Dynamic variation of sound level
during playing is what the existing CC 7 and CC 11 MIDI controls are for (via the
Continuous Filter element).

CLW
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Sven Meier
Hi Marco,
we still do not have "Gain" which we had before 3.13
yes, we do. Select a Fluidsynth sound element, look into the properties view and voila: "gain".
Hope this helps
Sven
Post by Jacques LEVY
Not at all my opinion !
R&C should continue to be installed and settable individually on each and
every disposition according to one's moods and tastes or circumstances and
also according to
each loaded disposition.
Having the R&C on jOrgan should not impede this. My argument is whether it
is necessary to have these "common functions" on each and every disposition
created!
Marco Francesco
2011-04-09 21:08:45 UTC
Permalink
oops!
Post by Lynn Walls
And before someone makes the suggestion: we do NOT need a jOrgan "gain" element that can
be placed on a Console. Re-setting the gain value occasionally in Construct mode provides
more than adequate flexibility for this adjustment. Dynamic variation of sound level
during playing is what the existing CC 7 and CC 11 MIDI controls are for (via the
Continuous Filter element).
CLW
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orgel jeux
2011-04-09 21:13:22 UTC
Permalink
MArco, I did not intend to hurt you........

Greetings,

Geert
Post by John Beach
oops!
Post by Lynn Walls
And before someone makes the suggestion: we do NOT need a jOrgan "gain"
element that can
be placed on a Console. Re-setting the gain value occasionally in
Construct mode provides
more than adequate flexibility for this adjustment. Dynamic variation of sound level
during playing is what the existing CC 7 and CC 11 MIDI controls are for (via the
Continuous Filter element).
CLW
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Marco Francesco
2011-04-09 21:30:12 UTC
Permalink
That's OK Geert. Just putting on a bit of an act to console myself and my
wounded heart.



Marco

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BCA
2011-04-10 08:52:38 UTC
Permalink
Hi Marco,
I also missed it first ;-)
Regards
Bernd.

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Rick (greenfox)
2011-04-10 11:17:18 UTC
Permalink
I believe that using FS Gain to balance ranks is a most ungainly way to
do it. Up until recently I had adjusted each rank using a Message -
Note Played: set 144, set pitch, set xxx (0 to 127)

This weekend I have discovered just how easy it is to set up a
Continuous Filter with the message Engaging: set 176, set 7, set value |
div 1.01 | add 0.01 | mult volume 127 referenced from the specific
rank element (and the rank message Note Played above set to 127 so maximum).

I have now incorporated all of this in a new disposition with a settings
console. Each rank has a 20 stage slider. Each FS Reverb element also
has a 20 stage slider. Based on Sven's hint I have also included 5x
combination pistons for both the rank levels and the reverb levels. You
can now jump back a forth to different pre-set settings.

See the latest version
http://www.tosa-qld.org/VTPO/files/christie313b6_d12.zip

Other improvements in this disposition include the adjustment of Trem
speed and depth to more closely match the real instrument I am
re-creating and adjustment of pan from in the SF2 file.

Enjoy and have fun. I look forward to any comments, notifications of
problems etc.

Regards
Rick
Post by Lynn Walls
And before someone makes the suggestion: we do NOT need a jOrgan "gain" element that can
be placed on a Console. Re-setting the gain value occasionally in Construct mode provides
more than adequate flexibility for this adjustment. Dynamic variation of sound level
during playing is what the existing CC 7 and CC 11 MIDI controls are for (via the
Continuous Filter element).
CLW
BCA
2011-04-10 11:43:24 UTC
Permalink
Hi Rick,

"Note Played: set 144, set pitch, set xxx (0 to 127)" replaces the input
velocity by another velocity.

To control volume, a CC7 message is necessary.
set 176, set 7, set xxx (0 to 127)

Regards
Bernd.


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Rick (greenfox)
2011-04-10 11:53:39 UTC
Permalink
OK thanks Bernd

Something is working! Maybe there is more than one way to skin a cat as
they say.

Can you please suggest changes I should make to the Rank settings in my
published (development version) christie disposition?

Thank you
Rick
Post by BCA
Hi Rick,
"Note Played: set 144, set pitch, set xxx (0 to 127)" replaces the input
velocity by another velocity.
To control volume, a CC7 message is necessary.
set 176, set 7, set xxx (0 to 127)
Regards
Bernd.
BCA
2011-04-10 16:41:59 UTC
Permalink
Hi Rick,

there's nothing I can say or propose. A wonderful release. Also the reverb
settings sound very fine to me.

I really enjoy to see that child growing... :-) Everything is handled with
so much love.
But, interesting though, every release has had it's own state of perfection.

So much thanks, Rick.

Regards
Bernd.



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Rick (greenfox)
2011-04-10 23:36:07 UTC
Permalink
Thank you Bernd

I really appreciate you taking the time to look.

I apologise if some of my techniques are not out of the MIDI book. I
appreciate any advice you can give. I just try to copy things I see
working and then get them going with trial and error.

I must say that the deeper I get the more I marvel at what Sven has
given us here to work with. The element, reference and grouping system
is so elegant and dignified.

* Seven if you are reading this, the only thing I would like is for the
"New Element" or "Add Element" window to be able to sort by element type
and/or group, rather than just alphabetical.

Regards
Rick
Post by BCA
Hi Rick,
there's nothing I can say or propose. A wonderful release. Also the reverb
settings sound very fine to me.
I really enjoy to see that child growing... :-) Everything is handled with
so much love.
But, interesting though, every release has had it's own state of perfection.
So much thanks, Rick.
Regards
Bernd.
Marco Francesco
2011-04-09 20:59:30 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Sven,

I was told that already... But can this be represented as a specific and
separate element for adjustment on the organ console (if that's what most
seem to prefer) as we have for Chorus NR, Chorus, Level, etc etc? I don't
believe so. It is impractical to keep going into construct view and change
gain for each FS sound element?

Do I get a show of hands for this one....... at least...... pleeeeeze? (I
was mortally wounded on the R&C count... )

Marco
Post by Sven Meier
Hi Marco,
we still do not have "Gain" which we had before 3.13
yes, we do. Select a Fluidsynth sound element, look into the properties
view and voila: "gain".
Hope this helps
Sven
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Jacques LEVY
2011-04-09 22:27:08 UTC
Permalink
I think we are in a false debate "FS or not FS".

FS
I support 100 % Sven's attempt to constantly improve the integration of FS
into jOrgan.
Reverb, Chorus (and why not Gain) settings from the console is a fantastic
improvement.
In anycase, the creator of the dispo is free to select the parameter he
wants to introduce on the console. The user can also modify the dispo
accordingly.

Not FS
The users, allergic to FS, are free not to use it. They can ignore or
suppress the FS settings very easily and should not be disturbed by the FS
facilities.

The major advantage of FS is to be integrated in jOrgan.
I am certain that, with the constant efforts of Sven, Bernd, Graham and all
the others, the FS solution will be more and more efficient and attractive.
Maybe also with PortAudio and ASIO in a next future ...

Have fun

Jacques
BCA
2011-04-10 09:03:51 UTC
Permalink
Heads off, Jacques.

Exactly my thinking. Besides, it is not set in stone, that the FluidSynth
development will stay forever with the present algorithms. So we're prepared
for future take-off.

Til now, we remain to talk about the OLD, but not the NEW features.

I found that the old kind jOrgan handled the FS effects do not represent the
real abilities of FS in fine adjustment. Those are essential for setting up
reverbs and choruses. If my suspicion is true, it was set to a threshold at
10, so we don't know 90% of the really available adjustments. Also, under
those circumstances, we're not able to judge about the FS effects quality,
anyway.

Another misunderstanding is, that most of the talking users are pre-occupied
of a HEADPHONE setup of jOrgan. But all those effects are only necessary in
the instrument is intended to reproduce a "seemingly natural" environment
for headphones.

If the instrument is intended for usage in a church, it doesn't need those
abilities, at all.

Regards
Bernd.




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orgel jeux
2011-04-10 19:22:11 UTC
Permalink
Jacques, Bernd,

Of course I am also for using FS, specially because it seems possible to
extend it in future, getting ASIO etc.

Coming weeks I hope to spend some time comparing its C and R possibilities
somewhat more, specially because although I have a Lexicon harware unit for
reverb, it is not very well suited to get different reverb levels for the
different parts of the organ, something that could be implemented using FS I
guess.

I have some very convincing samplesets, like Forcalquier, where one can hear
much difference in acoustics between GO, POS and RECIT.
Of course in this case the reverb is part of the samples, so no extra reverb
necessary. But I like it very much, that you can hear the Recit coming frome
heaven, and the pos is much more direct.

Greetings,

Geert
Post by BCA
Heads off, Jacques.
Exactly my thinking. Besides, it is not set in stone, that the FluidSynth
development will stay forever with the present algorithms. So we're prepared
for future take-off.
Til now, we remain to talk about the OLD, but not the NEW features.
I found that the old kind jOrgan handled the FS effects do not represent the
real abilities of FS in fine adjustment. Those are essential for setting up
reverbs and choruses. If my suspicion is true, it was set to a threshold at
10, so we don't know 90% of the really available adjustments. Also, under
those circumstances, we're not able to judge about the FS effects quality,
anyway.
Another misunderstanding is, that most of the talking users are pre-occupied
of a HEADPHONE setup of jOrgan. But all those effects are only necessary in
the instrument is intended to reproduce a "seemingly natural" environment
for headphones.
If the instrument is intended for usage in a church, it doesn't need those
abilities, at all.
Regards
Bernd.
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Marco Francesco
2011-04-10 23:48:31 UTC
Permalink
Bernd,

You sound like Henry VIII! Don't you mean "Hats off"? (hehehe)
Post by BCA
Heads off, Jacques.
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John Beach
2011-04-10 01:05:02 UTC
Permalink
Marco, if you highlight the Fluidsynth Sound Source Element and then add a
continuous filter element that references it, and choose the green light
slider element that does NOT have the associated label with it, enter the
messages "Engaging set 176, set 7, set volume 127 | mult value" and
"Intercept equal 176, equal 7, get volume"
the green light slider will work nicely as a gain control on the console or
alternate console.
John

-----Original Message-----
From: Marco Francesco
Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 4:59 PM
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] R: latency - how to useasio4all insteadof
fluidsynth

Thanks Sven,

I was told that already... But can this be represented as a specific and
separate element for adjustment on the organ console (if that's what most
seem to prefer) as we have for Chorus NR, Chorus, Level, etc etc? I don't
believe so. It is impractical to keep going into construct view and change
gain for each FS sound element?

Do I get a show of hands for this one....... at least...... pleeeeeze? (I
was mortally wounded on the R&C count... )

Marco
Post by Sven Meier
Hi Marco,
we still do not have "Gain" which we had before 3.13
yes, we do. Select a Fluidsynth sound element, look into the properties
view and voila: "gain".
Hope this helps
Sven
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Marco Francesco
2011-04-10 12:51:17 UTC
Permalink
John,

Would I be expecting too much if I asked you to send me a sample disposition
with the continuous filter as you have described. I could not figure out how
to do it.... I did try several times.

Marco
Post by John Beach
Marco, if you highlight the Fluidsynth Sound Source Element and then add a
continuous filter element that references it, and choose the green light
slider element that does NOT have the associated label with it, enter the
messages "Engaging set 176, set 7, set volume 127 | mult value" and
"Intercept equal 176, equal 7, get volume"
the green light slider will work nicely as a gain control on the console or
alternate console.
John
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John Beach
2011-04-10 17:20:09 UTC
Permalink
-----Original Message-----
From: Marco Francesco
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2011 8:51 AM
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] R: latency - how touseasio4all insteadof
fluidsynth

John,

Would I be expecting too much if I asked you to send me a sample disposition
with the continuous filter as you have described. I could not figure out how
to do it.... I did try several times.

Marco
John Beach
2011-04-10 17:26:57 UTC
Permalink
Marco,

The disposition and soundfont files have been sent to your own email
address.

John

-----Original Message-----
From: Marco Francesco
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2011 8:51 AM
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] R: latency - how touseasio4all insteadof
fluidsynth

John,

Would I be expecting too much if I asked you to send me a sample disposition
with the continuous filter as you have described. I could not figure out how
to do it.... I did try several times.

Marco
orgel jeux
2011-04-10 19:13:23 UTC
Permalink
To Marco Rizzo:

I noticed that you use the on-board Realtek Sound device. Perhaps in taht
case, you will not be able to hear much difference between FS reverb and
betterquality reverb engines.

So perhaps you should not take my earlier comments too serious about the
flaws of FS reverb.
It is of course sensible to have equal quality components in your total
sound setup. And if you are content with the built-in audio, so be-it, and
FS reverb can do its work properly.

As soon as you invest in a better quality audio device it gets important to
also have better quality samplesets, and other components like reverb
engine, multiple audio channels etc etc.


The days of the PCI Creative SB audio cards seem to be history already,
although I still have two sitting in my PC.
But in fact using them for organ sound can still give very nice results,
AND, you will have the EAX environmental engine that can give really good
reverbs.

You can either use them for audio reproduction in combination with a
software sample player like FS, or use the soundfont capabilities and the
built-in hardware synths.

greetings,

Geert
Post by Panos Ghekas
Marco,
The disposition and soundfont files have been sent to your own email
address.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: Marco Francesco
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2011 8:51 AM
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] R: latency - how touseasio4all insteadof
fluidsynth
John,
Would I be expecting too much if I asked you to send me a sample disposition
with the continuous filter as you have described. I could not figure out how
to do it.... I did try several times.
Marco
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John Beach
2011-04-09 18:13:54 UTC
Permalink
Speaking of appropriate values for chorus in the soundfont, I set the chorus
in the preset to 100 just for test purposes and find that it is too much. I
actually get a tremulant effect, very strong and usable as such, but not
what you would want as a pleasing "chorus" effect to add a sense of the
realism of pipe organ tuning and voicing to the soundfont. Considering the
jOrgan Chorus settings increments and sensitivity, does anyone have any
recommendations as to the overall best setting in the Preset pool in Vienna
Soundfont Studio to achieve the most realistic and desirable chorus effect
in jOrgan? As I said, I think have it wide open at 100 is way too much.

John Beach


The only thing a disposition creator should do is to make
sure the sf2 file is adapted to be able to respond to the R&C by adding the
appropriate values in the General Presets.

I hope this will be the path jOrgan development will take.

Marco
orgel jeux
2011-04-09 18:40:41 UTC
Permalink
Marco, ( Francesco and Rizzo)

When you like the - classical - organ much, and you are in for quality sound
reproduction, you will certainly discover, that the reverb engine of FS is
far off from quality reverbs like they can befound for instance in the SB
EAX, or a Lexicon hardware unit for instance.

I for myself woulf find it not a tribute to the efforts that people like
Bernd, John Beach and others put in their deliberate construction of their
samplesets to flood them with the "toy quality" reverb form FS. This reverb
was not made for careful reproduction of church acoustics.
It is only appropriate for gioving pop or synth sounds some space awareness.

And Chorus we do not need at all, as the initial quality of the samples,
tuning instabilities etc give you the real thing. A real pipe does not have
Chorus.......

Why, will people ask, do I always feel the need to talk like this?? Its
because of the love for the organ sound, that has this 'king of
instruments" possibilities, and just because of that, can only be served
with quality reverb......

Pls compare a good sampleset with eventually a good quality reverb added (
or perhaps a recorded sampleset inclusive the original acoustics) with the
FS reverb.

Greetings,

Geert
Post by John Beach
Speaking of appropriate values for chorus in the soundfont, I set the chorus
in the preset to 100 just for test purposes and find that it is too much.
I
actually get a tremulant effect, very strong and usable as such, but not
what you would want as a pleasing "chorus" effect to add a sense of the
realism of pipe organ tuning and voicing to the soundfont. Considering the
jOrgan Chorus settings increments and sensitivity, does anyone have any
recommendations as to the overall best setting in the Preset pool in Vienna
Soundfont Studio to achieve the most realistic and desirable chorus effect
in jOrgan? As I said, I think have it wide open at 100 is way too much.
John Beach
The only thing a disposition creator should do is to make
sure the sf2 file is adapted to be able to respond to the R&C by adding the
appropriate values in the General Presets.
I hope this will be the path jOrgan development will take.
Marco
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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smartphone on the nation's most reliable network.
And it wants your games.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/verizon-sfdev
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Lynn Walls
2011-04-09 20:31:15 UTC
Permalink
Geert,

I am so happy you said this!

The Fluidsynth "reverb" and "chorus" features are both utterly awful! I don't know why
anyone would use them. I certainly don't! However, I guess it's a matter of taste: so I
won't criticize them further. However, I think Sven has put in more than enough effort to
provide the additional flexibility to adjust these properties with Console controls. As
they are bad enough to justify keeping them silenced in the first place, I cannot
understand why anyone would even want to adjust them dynamically while playing the organ.

CLW
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by orgel jeux
Marco, ( Francesco and Rizzo)
When you like the - classical - organ much, and you are in for quality sound reproduction,
you will certainly discover, that the reverb engine of FS is far off from quality reverbs
like they can befound for instance in the SB EAX, or a Lexicon hardware unit for instance.
I for myself woulf find it not a tribute to the efforts that people like Bernd, John Beach
and others put in their deliberate construction of their samplesets to flood them with the
"toy quality" reverb form FS. This reverb was not made for careful reproduction of
church acoustics.
It is only appropriate for gioving pop or synth sounds some space awareness.
And Chorus we do not need at all, as the initial quality of the samples, tuning
instabilities etc give you the real thing. A real pipe does not have Chorus.......
Why, will people ask, do I always feel the need to talk like this?? Its because of the
love for the organ sound, that has this 'king of instruments" possibilities, and just
because of that, can only be served with quality reverb......
Pls compare a good sampleset with eventually a good quality reverb added ( or perhaps a
recorded sampleset inclusive the original acoustics) with the FS reverb.
Graham Harrison
2011-04-09 21:07:05 UTC
Permalink
If I might join in this discussion - I would suggest that reverb (and
chorus - but who uses chorus anyway?) should *not* be a function of jOrgan
at all, until such times as a dedicated sampler is also an integral part of
jOrgan - which, as far as I can see, does not feature in Sven's plans.

In the meantime, the proper place for a reverb engine is within the
*sampler*, be that a Creative sound card or a software sampler such as
Fluidsynth - but not within jOrgan.

As far as sound fonts are concerned, the jOrgan "builders" should ensure
that their soundfonts are configured such that they will respond to the
reverb settings in the sampler - which probably means setting reverb = 100%
in both Instrument and Preset pools. If the sampler is not capable of
"using" these settings, no effect will be heard.

Whether the end user chooses to use the reverb facilities provided by the
sampler software is up to him or her. If the reverb engine built into the
sampler is deemed to be unsatisfactory (as still seems to be the case with
Fluidsynth), the end user should be looking to a hardware reverb device such
as the Lexicon, or the Creative/EMU sound card's EAX console, or to a
software solution such as Convolution reverb. He should *not* be looking
for a solution within jOrgan.

IMHO, of course ;-)

GrahamH

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Walls" <***@gmail.com>
To: <jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 9:31 PM
Subject: [jOrgan-user] Fluidsynth Reverb and Chorus (was: latency - how to
use asio4all instead of fluidsynth)
Post by Lynn Walls
Geert,
I am so happy you said this!
The Fluidsynth "reverb" and "chorus" features are both utterly awful! I don't know why
anyone would use them. I certainly don't! However, I guess it's a matter of taste: so I
won't criticize them further. However, I think Sven has put in more than enough effort to
provide the additional flexibility to adjust these properties with Console controls. As
they are bad enough to justify keeping them silenced in the first place, I cannot
understand why anyone would even want to adjust them dynamically while playing the organ.
CLW
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by orgel jeux
Marco, ( Francesco and Rizzo)
When you like the - classical - organ much, and you are in for quality
sound reproduction,
you will certainly discover, that the reverb engine of FS is far off from quality reverbs
like they can befound for instance in the SB EAX, or a Lexicon hardware
unit for instance.
I for myself woulf find it not a tribute to the efforts that people like
Bernd, John Beach
and others put in their deliberate construction of their samplesets to
flood them with the
"toy quality" reverb form FS. This reverb was not made for careful reproduction of
church acoustics.
It is only appropriate for gioving pop or synth sounds some space awareness.
And Chorus we do not need at all, as the initial quality of the samples, tuning
instabilities etc give you the real thing. A real pipe does not have Chorus.......
Why, will people ask, do I always feel the need to talk like this?? Its because of the
love for the organ sound, that has this 'king of instruments"
possibilities, and just
because of that, can only be served with quality reverb......
Pls compare a good sampleset with eventually a good quality reverb added ( or perhaps a
recorded sampleset inclusive the original acoustics) with the FS reverb.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xperia(TM) PLAY
It's a major breakthrough. An authentic gaming
smartphone on the nation's most reliable network.
And it wants your games.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/verizon-sfdev
_______________________________________________
jOrgan-user mailing list
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jorgan-user
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06:34:00
orgel jeux
2011-04-09 21:10:45 UTC
Permalink
Ok Lynn!

Just tonight I got my old yamaha DB50XG synth module working again. And
despite of the Roland Sound Canvas I have, I must say that this unit was
ahead of its time. In those days there were a few guys who made really nice
midifiles for it. And it has built-in effects too! You can make a fantastic
electic piano sound with chorus and reverb.

Did you ever play with this stuff?/

greetings,

Geert
Post by Lynn Walls
Geert,
I am so happy you said this!
The Fluidsynth "reverb" and "chorus" features are both utterly awful! I don't know why
anyone would use them. I certainly don't! However, I guess it's a matter of taste: so I
won't criticize them further. However, I think Sven has put in more than enough effort to
provide the additional flexibility to adjust these properties with Console controls. As
they are bad enough to justify keeping them silenced in the first place, I cannot
understand why anyone would even want to adjust them dynamically while playing the organ.
CLW
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by orgel jeux
Marco, ( Francesco and Rizzo)
When you like the - classical - organ much, and you are in for quality
sound reproduction,
Post by orgel jeux
you will certainly discover, that the reverb engine of FS is far off from
quality reverbs
Post by orgel jeux
like they can befound for instance in the SB EAX, or a Lexicon hardware
unit for instance.
Post by orgel jeux
I for myself woulf find it not a tribute to the efforts that people like
Bernd, John Beach
Post by orgel jeux
and others put in their deliberate construction of their samplesets to
flood them with the
Post by orgel jeux
"toy quality" reverb form FS. This reverb was not made for careful
reproduction of
Post by orgel jeux
church acoustics.
It is only appropriate for gioving pop or synth sounds some space
awareness.
Post by orgel jeux
And Chorus we do not need at all, as the initial quality of the samples,
tuning
Post by orgel jeux
instabilities etc give you the real thing. A real pipe does not have
Chorus.......
Post by orgel jeux
Why, will people ask, do I always feel the need to talk like this?? Its
because of the
Post by orgel jeux
love for the organ sound, that has this 'king of instruments"
possibilities, and just
Post by orgel jeux
because of that, can only be served with quality reverb......
Pls compare a good sampleset with eventually a good quality reverb added
( or perhaps a
Post by orgel jeux
recorded sampleset inclusive the original acoustics) with the FS reverb.
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Lynn Walls
2011-04-10 00:09:23 UTC
Permalink
Yes...I have a Roland SC-8850 and a ROland SC-88VL. They do have usable built-in effects,
which may indeed be used with good results on their percussive instrument sounds.

CLW
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by orgel jeux
Ok Lynn!
Just tonight I got my old yamaha DB50XG synth module working again. And despite of the
Roland Sound Canvas I have, I must say that this unit was ahead of its time. In those days
there were a few guys who made really nice midifiles for it. And it has built-in effects
too! You can make a fantastic electic piano sound with chorus and reverb.
Did you ever play with this stuff?/
greetings,
Geert
Geert,
I am so happy you said this!
The Fluidsynth "reverb" and "chorus" features are both utterly awful! I don't know why
anyone would use them. I certainly don't! However, I guess it's a matter of taste: so I
won't criticize them further. However, I think Sven has put in more than enough effort to
provide the additional flexibility to adjust these properties with Console controls. As
they are bad enough to justify keeping them silenced in the first place, I cannot
understand why anyone would even want to adjust them dynamically while playing the organ.
CLW
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by orgel jeux
Marco, ( Francesco and Rizzo)
When you like the - classical - organ much, and you are in for quality sound
reproduction,
Post by orgel jeux
you will certainly discover, that the reverb engine of FS is far off from quality
reverbs
Post by orgel jeux
like they can befound for instance in the SB EAX, or a Lexicon hardware unit for
instance.
Post by orgel jeux
I for myself woulf find it not a tribute to the efforts that people like Bernd,
John Beach
Post by orgel jeux
and others put in their deliberate construction of their samplesets to flood them
with the
Post by orgel jeux
"toy quality" reverb form FS. This reverb was not made for careful reproduction of
church acoustics.
It is only appropriate for gioving pop or synth sounds some space awareness.
And Chorus we do not need at all, as the initial quality of the samples, tuning
instabilities etc give you the real thing. A real pipe does not have Chorus.......
Why, will people ask, do I always feel the need to talk like this?? Its because of the
love for the organ sound, that has this 'king of instruments" possibilities, and just
because of that, can only be served with quality reverb......
Pls compare a good sampleset with eventually a good quality reverb added ( or
perhaps a
Post by orgel jeux
recorded sampleset inclusive the original acoustics) with the FS reverb.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xperia(TM) PLAY
It's a major breakthrough. An authentic gaming
smartphone on the nation's most reliable network.
And it wants your games.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/verizon-sfdev
_______________________________________________
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https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jorgan-user
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Marco Francesco
2011-04-10 23:17:19 UTC
Permalink
Lynn,

In Latin a proverb goes something like this: "De gostibus non disputandum
est" or something to that effect ie you cannot discuss tastes (each to his
own).

As for adjusting them dynamically whilst playing.... that was never my
intention. It's like saying something highly stupid like wanting to change
the church to alter the acoustic effects whilst performing the Toccata and
Fugue in D minor. Bizarre at best!

What I would like is to be able to adjust the settings whilst hearing the
effect I desire to achieve. Going in and out of construct mode is a pretty
clumsy and time consuming way of doing things (especially with so many
settings ie 9 in all: 4 for Chorus; 4 for Reverb and another one for Gain).

For this reason alone I intend hanging on tight to jOrgan 3.11.1 where
"live" adjustment is possible. This does not mean I do not look forward to
or use more recent versions of jOrgan. Far from it. Indeed for playing in
Church, I am almost invariably using 3.12.3 (64x) and I have been providing
much feedback on the latest 3.13 betas.

So Lynn, please, before you hurl cream pies and tomatoes at me, do try to
understand first what I'm trying to say! I am not be as eloquent as you (
[cough]) or clear at times....
Post by Lynn Walls
The Fluidsynth "reverb" and "chorus" features are both utterly awful! I don't know why
anyone would use them. I certainly don't! However, I guess it's a matter of taste: so I
won't criticize them further. However, I think Sven has put in more than enough effort to
provide the additional flexibility to adjust these properties with Console controls. As
they are bad enough to justify keeping them silenced in the first place, I cannot
understand why anyone would even want to adjust them dynamically while playing the organ.
CLW
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Rick (greenfox)
2011-04-10 23:24:39 UTC
Permalink
Hello Marco

Have you had a look at the functionality I have been able to provide in
the latest release of the jOrgan Christie?

Live adjustment of every parameter your heart desires.

I can help you get this working in your disposition if you like.

Regards
Rick
Post by Marco Francesco
Lynn,
In Latin a proverb goes something like this: "De gostibus non disputandum
est" or something to that effect ie you cannot discuss tastes (each to his
own).
Marco Francesco
2011-04-11 00:16:29 UTC
Permalink
Hi Rick,

Yes indeed I have. There is a lot of room for expression with all the
variables. I have not explored it in detail but I get the drift.

I think that we do not really need so much complexity for most organs
especially the classic ones. Reverb in a church does not effect one set of
ranks more than others. I understand that we are dealing with the "virtual"
world. Nevertheless the 9 parameters (4 Chorus, 4 Reverb and 1 Gain) are
more than adequate if applied to all ranks together (in the same way a
volume slider would apply to the whole VPO not parts of it).

One more thing about having these features on the organ console (instead of
on the jOrgan GUI)... unless we are going to use dual monitors, there is
going to be too much clutter of stops, pistons and sliders. For everything
to fit on a single screen, stop/piston/slider sizes will have to be
compromised and using fingers the size of mine to bring about changes on a
single touch screen will result in hitting the wrong button more often than
not! It is already a problem with some dispositions WITHOUT the chorus and
reverb additions!

As already discussed, whilst stops and pistons need to be changed frequently
whilst playing, chorus and reverb need to be adjusted just once and that is
before starting to play.... the same way we choose our input midi devices
from the customizer.... (we don't do this from the disposition's console!)

Marco
Post by Rick (greenfox)
Hello Marco
Have you had a look at the functionality I have been able to provide in
the latest release of the jOrgan Christie?
Live adjustment of every parameter your heart desires.
I can help you get this working in your disposition if you like.
Regards
Rick
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Marco Francesco
2011-04-09 20:40:59 UTC
Permalink
As I have indicated elsewhere, I found 40 to be the maximum figure that
should be entered. I think 30 might even be better. (I used Viena)

Marco
Post by John Beach
Speaking of appropriate values for chorus in the soundfont, I set the chorus
in the preset to 100 just for test purposes and find that it is too much.
I
actually get a tremulant effect, very strong and usable as such, but not
what you would want as a pleasing "chorus" effect to add a sense of the
realism of pipe organ tuning and voicing to the soundfont. Considering the
jOrgan Chorus settings increments and sensitivity, does anyone have any
recommendations as to the overall best setting in the Preset pool in Vienna
Soundfont Studio to achieve the most realistic and desirable chorus effect
in jOrgan? As I said, I think have it wide open at 100 is way too much.
John Beach
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John Beach
2011-04-10 00:56:32 UTC
Permalink
Marco, thanks. I will try it at 30 and see how that works in jOrgan
Fluidsynth. I find that the NR parameter in Fluidsynth is far too sensitive
and just increasing it one
slider green light produces an unusable result.

John



As I have indicated elsewhere, I found 40 to be the maximum figure that
should be entered. I think 30 might even be better. (I used Viena)

Marco
Lynn Walls
2011-04-10 02:21:59 UTC
Permalink
Sven,

Regarding these new Reverb and Chorus elements, I understand that their "Value" property
is mapped to the number of <images> in the skin XML file, and as the user uses the mouse
to select these images this "Value" is computed to granularity of the number of images.
So that if there are 10 images in the skin graphic, each image progresses the value of
"Value" by 1/10 (= 0.1). This interval may be too coarse for some sensitive parameters,
and the total "Value" range of 0 through 1 may not really fit what the user needs or wants
to have actually sent to the respective Fluidsynth parameter.

Of course the user can always achieve finer granularity (1/128) by binding the Reverb or
Chorus element's Value property to an incoming MIDI message, but this may not be
convenient for everyone.

What is really needed is more range control by the user over the actual parameter value
being sent to Fluidsynth.

So, please consider adding two additional properties to the Reverb and Chorus elements
(and any future elements of a similar nature). These would be:
Scaling Factor
Base

The user could then set these properties to any desired numerical value, and the parameter
value actually sent to Fluidsynth would be, for example:
Reverb Width = (Value) X (Scaling Factor) + (Base)
where "Value" continues to be the 0-1 that is bound to the skin graphic or MIDI message.
And "Scaling Factor" and "Base" allow the user to precisely specify the Fluidsynth
parameter range values.

For example: With a Scaling Factor of 0.1 and a Base of .01, the range of the Reverb Width
value would be scaled to .01 through 0.1 as the skin graphic (slider, swell, etc.) moves
through its range of 0 to 1.

CLW
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by John Beach
Marco, thanks. I will try it at 30 and see how that works in jOrgan
Fluidsynth. I find that the NR parameter in Fluidsynth is far too sensitive
and just increasing it one
slider green light produces an unusable result.
John
As I have indicated elsewhere, I found 40 to be the maximum figure that
should be entered. I think 30 might even be better. (I used Viena)
Marco
Erik De Schrijver
2011-04-10 08:05:02 UTC
Permalink
Hello,

Thank you for your suggestion to Sven.
This would indeed make the manipulation of these parameters very elegant.

In the mean time, if, for the console on which the Chorus and Reverb
parameters are put, one would use as skin aeolian-skinner_4.3.zip from
Paul Stratman's ACO dispositions, he/she can obtain a granularity of
100. Already a nice improvement.

All the best.

Erik.
---------------------------
Post by Lynn Walls
Sven,
Regarding these new Reverb and Chorus elements, I understand that their "Value" property
is mapped to the number of<images> in the skin XML file, and as the user uses the mouse
to select these images this "Value" is computed to granularity of the number of images.
So that if there are 10 images in the skin graphic, each image progresses the value of
"Value" by 1/10 (= 0.1). This interval may be too coarse for some sensitive parameters,
and the total "Value" range of 0 through 1 may not really fit what the user needs or wants
to have actually sent to the respective Fluidsynth parameter.
Of course the user can always achieve finer granularity (1/128) by binding the Reverb or
Chorus element's Value property to an incoming MIDI message, but this may not be
convenient for everyone.
What is really needed is more range control by the user over the actual parameter value
being sent to Fluidsynth.
So, please consider adding two additional properties to the Reverb and Chorus elements
Scaling Factor
Base
The user could then set these properties to any desired numerical value, and the parameter
Reverb Width = (Value) X (Scaling Factor) + (Base)
where "Value" continues to be the 0-1 that is bound to the skin graphic or MIDI message.
And "Scaling Factor" and "Base" allow the user to precisely specify the Fluidsynth
parameter range values.
For example: With a Scaling Factor of 0.1 and a Base of .01, the range of the Reverb Width
value would be scaled to .01 through 0.1 as the skin graphic (slider, swell, etc.) moves
through its range of 0 to 1.
CLW
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lynn Walls
2011-04-09 14:12:38 UTC
Permalink
I disagree completely!

We are not discussing a church where several organs may be swapped in and out. We are
discussing a universal software platform (jOrgan) where several different instruments
whose audio (soundfonts) may have been recorded in several different locales (churches).
Any reverb or chorus that might be added would typically be done to make the ORGAN sound
more realistic with respect to its locale -- not to provide one setting for every possible
organ disposition that might be loaded. The reverb and chorus settings would generally be
set by the disposition developer to "voice" that particular organ to its original locale
-- *not* to set those attributes for your home locale or wherever the end user would be
playing the instrument.

CLW
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Marco Francesco
I strongly believe Chorus and Reverb should be a property of jOrgan not the
individual organs just like reverb is an acoustic characteristic of the
church not the instrument it houses!
Marco Francesco
2011-04-09 14:28:02 UTC
Permalink
I think you have misunderstood my post, Lynn.

I never implied having one setting for all dispositions. I would like to see
R&C on jOrgan where they can be adjusted from.

I do want to be able to vary the amount of reverb and chorus even for the
same disposition depending on whether I am playing that organ at home (no
natural reverb - hence requires settings around +80%) or in Church which has
a lot of reverb potential because it is spacious (in which case I just add a
touch of reverb at say +20%)!

Conclusion: I would like
(i) adjustable Chorus & Reverb,
(ii) on the jOrgan GUI and I would like it to be possible
(iii) "on the fly" (if that's the correct term) ie adjustable even during
playing as it was, I think in jOrgan 3.10.

Marco

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Lynn Walls
2011-04-09 16:28:34 UTC
Permalink
See comments below...
Post by Marco Francesco
Conclusion: I would like
(i) adjustable Chorus& Reverb,
Already available in latest jOrgan beta version.
Post by Marco Francesco
(ii) on the jOrgan GUI and I would like it to be possible
Already available in latest jOrgan beta version.
Post by Marco Francesco
(iii) "on the fly" (if that's the correct term) ie adjustable even during
playing as it was, I think in jOrgan 3.10.
Since the new Reverb and Chorus elements may be placed on the jOrgan disposition GUI
display with continuously variable skin graphics, I would imagine Sven's intent was to
have them be adjustable in "Play" mode.

CLW
Rick (greenfox)
2011-04-10 11:33:04 UTC
Permalink
jOrgan version 3.13 beta 6 provides the capability of everything I could
ever wish for.

Live adjustment of individual Rank levels
Live adjustment of all FS Reverb controls
The capability of storing multiple combinations of the above on pistons

I don't use Chorus.

I am a keen user of Fluidsynth. I acknowledge it may not be the highest
level of virtual organ audio reproduction, but for me, jOrgan with
Fluidsynth provides the tightest package of a complete virtual organ
that I can distribute to other users. By continuing to work with
Fluidsynth myself (and assisting with pushing the boundaries) I can
provide a package that can be replicated on almost any PC with just a
set of headphones.

For me it sounds a whole lot better than any electronic organ I have
ever owned or played.

Link to my latest version and my attempt to use as many as possible of
the latest features.
http://www.tosa-qld.org/VTPO/files/christie313b6_d12.zip

Regards
Rick
Post by Lynn Walls
See comments below...
Post by Marco Francesco
Conclusion: I would like
(i) adjustable Chorus& Reverb,
Already available in latest jOrgan beta version.
Post by Marco Francesco
(ii) on the jOrgan GUI and I would like it to be possible
Already available in latest jOrgan beta version.
Post by Marco Francesco
(iii) "on the fly" (if that's the correct term) ie adjustable even during
playing as it was, I think in jOrgan 3.10.
Since the new Reverb and Chorus elements may be placed on the jOrgan disposition GUI
display with continuously variable skin graphics, I would imagine Sven's intent was to
have them be adjustable in "Play" mode.
CLW
Erik De Schrijver
2011-04-10 15:12:23 UTC
Permalink
Hello Rick,

Very impressive and nice sounding organ indeed!
Congratulations with this very pleasing sound, and thanks for sharing.

All the best.

Erik.
-----------------------------------------------------
Post by Rick (greenfox)
jOrgan version 3.13 beta 6 provides the capability of everything I could
ever wish for.
Live adjustment of individual Rank levels
Live adjustment of all FS Reverb controls
The capability of storing multiple combinations of the above on pistons
I don't use Chorus.
I am a keen user of Fluidsynth. I acknowledge it may not be the highest
level of virtual organ audio reproduction, but for me, jOrgan with
Fluidsynth provides the tightest package of a complete virtual organ
that I can distribute to other users. By continuing to work with
Fluidsynth myself (and assisting with pushing the boundaries) I can
provide a package that can be replicated on almost any PC with just a
set of headphones.
For me it sounds a whole lot better than any electronic organ I have
ever owned or played.
Link to my latest version and my attempt to use as many as possible of
the latest features.
http://www.tosa-qld.org/VTPO/files/christie313b6_d12.zip
Regards
Rick
Rick (greenfox)
2011-04-10 23:27:11 UTC
Permalink
Hi Erik

Thank you for taking the time to try it and for your kind words.

Regards
Rick
Post by Erik De Schrijver
Hello Rick,
Very impressive and nice sounding organ indeed!
Congratulations with this very pleasing sound, and thanks for sharing.
All the best.
Erik.
Roy Radford
2011-04-09 12:59:50 UTC
Permalink
Hi, Marco,

                I've not taken much active part in this thread because my hearing and tastes in music would make me a poor judge of most of its subtle points but, on a more general note:

<<I strongly believe Chorus and Reverb should be a property of jOrgan not the
individual organs just like reverb is an acoustic characteristic of the
church not the instrument it houses!>>

   An interesting and, I think, debatable point of view. After all, a real church can't swap from one organ to another in a few seconds. If you regularly use several of the excellent dispos now on offer, would you want to reset all the acoustic parameters each time?

    Surely, to a large extent, a real organ is designed to suit the environment it is to be used in??


     ...Just armchair theorising again!  


       Have fun,

           Roy.



--- On Sat, 9/4/11, Marco Francesco <***@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Marco Francesco <***@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] R: latency - how to use asio4all instead of fluidsynth
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Date: Saturday, 9 April, 2011, 12:40

Hi John,

I was just going to mention that . Having said that, the rank play well with
the second soundfont! Why should its reference be changed?

I have noticed that the output from your organs using the latest jOrgan beta
sound very weak with a number of ranks almost imperceptible (including the
Swell Rohrflute 8) irrespective of which of the two soundfonts is used for
it.

With the reverb/ chorus settings removed from the actual interface of
jOrgan, all organs will have to undergo upgrading since otherwise there is
no way of adjusting the sound output and some if not most do need a bit of
tweeking here and there eg to reduce those that are to loud or adding a
touch of reverb to otherwise dull organs (not that they are bad in
themselves but I love that bit of echo that replicates the interior of a big
church or cathedral, the natural traditional home of real organs).

Without wishing to sound too critical, this feature change is somewhat
disappointing limiting what can be played unless auto upgrading of VPOs or
actual laborious manual modification is undertaken.

I strongly believe Chorus and Reverb should be a property of jOrgan not the
individual organs just like reverb is an acoustic characteristic of the
church not the instrument it houses!

Marco

--
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John Beach
2011-04-09 13:24:05 UTC
Permalink
The inherent problem with electronically-generated tone is that if it is dull and lifeless at the source (the speaker), the acoustical environment will not help it much.
I think this is the essential difference between real wind or air in a pipe producing a tone in a given acoustical ambience and an electronic, tuned oscillator circuit, amplifier and speaker attempting to do the same thing. Without the Reverb and/or Chorus capability, the electronic is pretty dull and lifeless. The fact is that additive synthesis on the order of the Hammond organ drawbar type can only be made to sound realistic and good if there is a reverberation capability with it. Otherwise, it is pretty dull and lifeless.

John Beach

From: Roy Radford
Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 8:59 AM
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] R: latency - how to use asio4all instead offluidsynth

Hi, Marco,

I've not taken much active part in this thread because my hearing and tastes in music would make me a poor judge of most of its subtle points but, on a more general note:

<<I strongly believe Chorus and Reverb should be a property of jOrgan not the
individual organs just like reverb is an acoustic characteristic of the
church not the instrument it houses!>>

An interesting and, I think, debatable point of view. After all, a real church can't swap from one organ to another in a few seconds. If you regularly use several of the excellent dispos now on offer, would you want to reset all the acoustic parameters each time?

Surely, to a large extent, a real organ is designed to suit the environment it is to be used in??


...Just armchair theorising again!


Have fun,

Roy.



--- On Sat, 9/4/11, Marco Francesco <***@gmail.com> wrote:


From: Marco Francesco <***@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] R: latency - how to use asio4all instead of fluidsynth
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Date: Saturday, 9 April, 2011, 12:40


Hi John,

I was just going to mention that . Having said that, the rank play well with
the second soundfont! Why should its reference be changed?

I have noticed that the output from your organs using the latest jOrgan beta
sound very weak with a number of ranks almost imperceptible (including the
Swell Rohrflute 8) irrespective of which of the two soundfonts is used for
it.

With the reverb/ chorus settings removed from the actual interface of
jOrgan, all organs will have to undergo upgrading since otherwise there is
no way of adjusting the sound output and some if not most do need a bit of
tweeking here and there eg to reduce those that are to loud or adding a
touch of reverb to otherwise dull organs (not that they are bad in
themselves but I love that bit of echo that replicates the interior of a big
church or cathedral, the natural traditional home of real organs).

Without wishing to sound too critical, this feature change is somewhat
disappointing limiting what can be played unless auto upgrading of VPOs or
actual laborious manual modification is undertaken.

I strongly believe Chorus and Reverb should be a property of jOrgan not the
individual organs just like reverb is an acoustic characteristic of the
church not the instrument it houses!

Marco

--
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xperia(TM) PLAY
It's a major breakthrough. An authentic gaming
smartphone on the nation's most reliable network.
And it wants your games.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/verizon-sfdev
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xperia(TM) PLAY
It's a major breakthrough. An authentic gaming
smartphone on the nation's most reliable network.
And it wants your games.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/verizon-sfdev


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roy Radford
2011-04-09 14:00:45 UTC
Permalink
   Hi, John,

                 Agreed, but it doesn't really address the question of whether the artificial environment should be part of jOrgan or the individual dispositions.

      Have fun,

          Roy.


--- On Sat, 9/4/11, John Beach <***@fairpoint.net> wrote:

From: John Beach <***@fairpoint.net>
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] R: latency - how to use asio4all instead offluidsynth
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Date: Saturday, 9 April, 2011, 14:24



The inherent problem with electronically-generated tone is that if it is
dull and lifeless at the source (the speaker), the acoustical environment will
not help it much.
I think this is the essential difference between real wind or air in a pipe
producing a tone in a given acoustical ambience  and an electronic, tuned
oscillator circuit, amplifier and speaker  attempting to do the same
thing.  Without the Reverb and/or Chorus capability, the electronic is
pretty dull and lifeless.  The fact is that additive synthesis on the order
of the Hammond organ drawbar type can only be made to sound realistic and good
if there is a reverberation capability with it.  Otherwise, it is pretty
dull and lifeless.
 
John Beach  


 

From: Roy Radford
Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 8:59 AM
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net

Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] R: latency - how to use asio4all instead
offluidsynth
 




Hi,
Marco,

               
I've not taken much active part in this thread because my hearing and
tastes in music would make me a poor judge of most of its subtle points
but, on a more general note:

<<I strongly believe Chorus and
Reverb should be a property of jOrgan not the
individual organs just
like reverb is an acoustic characteristic of the
church not the
instrument it houses!>>

   An interesting and, I
think, debatable point of view. After all, a real church can't swap from
one organ to another in a few seconds. If you regularly use several of the
excellent dispos now on offer, would you want to reset all the acoustic
parameters each time?

    Surely, to a large extent,
a real organ is designed to suit the environment it is to be used
in??


     ...Just armchair theorising
again!  


      
Have
fun,

          
Roy.



--- On Sat, 9/4/11, Marco Francesco
<***@gmail.com> wrote:


From:
Marco Francesco <***@gmail.com>
Subject: Re:
[jOrgan-user] R: latency - how to use asio4all instead of
fluidsynth
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Date: Saturday, 9
April, 2011, 12:40


Hi John,

I was just going to mention that .
Having said that, the rank play well with
the second soundfont! Why
should its reference be changed?

I have noticed that the output
from your organs using the latest jOrgan beta
sound very weak with a
number of ranks almost imperceptible (including the
Swell Rohrflute
8) irrespective of which of the two soundfonts is used
for
it.

With the reverb/ chorus settings removed from the
actual interface of
jOrgan, all organs will have to undergo upgrading
since otherwise there is
no way of adjusting the sound output and
some if not most do need a bit of
tweeking here and there eg to
reduce those that are to loud or adding a
touch of reverb to
otherwise dull organs (not that they are bad in
themselves but I love
that bit of echo that replicates the interior of a big
church or
cathedral, the natural traditional home of real organs).

Without
wishing to sound too critical, this feature change is
somewhat
disappointing limiting what can be played unless auto
upgrading of VPOs or
actual laborious manual modification is
undertaken.

I strongly believe Chorus and Reverb should be a
property of jOrgan not the
individual organs just like reverb is an
acoustic characteristic of the
church not the instrument it
houses!

Marco

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from the jOrgan - User mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.

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John Beach
2011-04-09 18:05:30 UTC
Permalink
Roy, I use soundfonts that are all additive synthesis, some are recorded from a jOrgan Synthesizer I made and others are produced using Wave Generator and tweaking the samples afterward. The fact is that the Creative Sound dispositions sound infinitely better than Fluidsynth and I don’t really understand why except that with Creative Sound I have the advantage of the EAX, AUP Reverb choices which are simply outstanding but which also can allow me the choice of having the same soundfont sound just like a Hammond organ in an acoustically “dead” environment and also allow it to sound nearly as good as a pipe organ in a cathedral. I don’t understand how electronics manipulated to do effectively the same thing in two different applications can achieve such starkly contrasting results. It is a puzzle.

John

From: Roy Radford
Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 10:00 AM
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] R: latency - how to use asio4all insteadoffluidsynth

Hi, John,

Agreed, but it doesn't really address the question of whether the artificial environment should be part of jOrgan or the individual dispositions.

Have fun,

Roy.


--- On Sat, 9/4/11, John Beach <***@fairpoint.net> wrote:


From: John Beach <***@fairpoint.net>
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] R: latency - how to use asio4all instead offluidsynth
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Date: Saturday, 9 April, 2011, 14:24


The inherent problem with electronically-generated tone is that if it is dull and lifeless at the source (the speaker), the acoustical environment will not help it much.
I think this is the essential difference between real wind or air in a pipe producing a tone in a given acoustical ambience and an electronic, tuned oscillator circuit, amplifier and speaker attempting to do the same thing. Without the Reverb and/or Chorus capability, the electronic is pretty dull and lifeless. The fact is that additive synthesis on the order of the Hammond organ drawbar type can only be made to sound realistic and good if there is a reverberation capability with it. Otherwise, it is pretty dull and lifeless.

John Beach

From: Roy Radford
Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 8:59 AM
To: wlmailhtml:/mc/compose?to=jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] R: latency - how to use asio4all instead offluidsynth

Hi, Marco,

I've not taken much active part in this thread because my hearing and tastes in music would make me a poor judge of most of its subtle points but, on a more general note:

<<I strongly believe Chorus and Reverb should be a property of jOrgan not the
individual organs just like reverb is an acoustic characteristic of the
church not the instrument it houses!>>

An interesting and, I think, debatable point of view. After all, a real church can't swap from one organ to another in a few seconds. If you regularly use several of the excellent dispos now on offer, would you want to reset all the acoustic parameters each time?

Surely, to a large extent, a real organ is designed to suit the environment it is to be used in??


...Just armchair theorising again!


Have fun,

Roy.



--- On Sat, 9/4/11, Marco Francesco <***@gmail.com> wrote:


From: Marco Francesco <***@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] R: latency - how to use asio4all instead of fluidsynth
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Date: Saturday, 9 April, 2011, 12:40


Hi John,

I was just going to mention that . Having said that, the rank play well with
the second soundfont! Why should its reference be changed?

I have noticed that the output from your organs using the latest jOrgan beta
sound very weak with a number of ranks almost imperceptible (including the
Swell Rohrflute 8) irrespective of which of the two soundfonts is used for
it.

With the reverb/ chorus settings removed from the actual interface of
jOrgan, all organs will have to undergo upgrading since otherwise there is
no way of adjusting the sound output and some if not most do need a bit of
tweeking here and there eg to reduce those that are to loud or adding a
touch of reverb to otherwise dull organs (not that they are bad in
themselves but I love that bit of echo that replicates the interior of a big
church or cathedral, the natural traditional home of real organs).

Without wishing to sound too critical, this feature change is somewhat
disappointing limiting what can be played unless auto upgrading of VPOs or
actual laborious manual modification is undertaken.

I strongly believe Chorus and Reverb should be a property of jOrgan not the
individual organs just like reverb is an acoustic characteristic of the
church not the instrument it houses!

Marco

--
View this message in context: http://jorgan.999862.n4.nabble.com/ANN-jOrgan-3-13-beta-6-for-Windoze-64-tp3434940p3438336.html
Sent from the jOrgan - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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And it wants your games.
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And it wants your games.
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And it wants your games.
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roy Radford
2011-04-09 14:34:24 UTC
Permalink
     Hi, Marco,

                      Surely the "inflationary" part of the deal is contained in Fluidsynth itself. All we a really debating is whether a small list of control parameters should be part of jOrgan or part of each disposition.

     I can see arguments both ways but personally my vote would be it should be part of each disposition, like an organ designed for its environment.

    Maybe we could have it both ways, with a user modifiable list of defaults in jOrgan which the disposition can overrule if its author chooses to set a flag???


     Have fun,

         Roy.


--- On Sat, 9/4/11, Marco Francesco <***@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Marco Francesco <***@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] R: latency - how to use asio4all instead of fluidsynth
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Date: Saturday, 9 April, 2011, 15:14

Hi Sven, (& John & Roy),

I certainly DO want the Reverb and Chorus. I DO! I DO! I DO!!!

My point, which I think you did grasp, thankfully, is that R&C should be on
the jOrgan GUI and modifiable from there NOT installed individually on each
and every disposition. There is no point in the latter. It inflates the size
of the VPO unnecessarily, (me thinks)!

R&C are features "common to all" and should be turned on or off or changed
according to one's moods and tastes or circumstances irrespective which
organ is loaded. The only thing a disposition creator should do is to make
sure the sf2 file is adapted to be able to respond to the R&C by adding the
appropriate values in the General Presets.

I hope this will be the path jOrgan development will take.

Marco

--
View this message in context: http://jorgan.999862.n4.nabble.com/ANN-jOrgan-3-13-beta-6-for-Windoze-64-tp3434940p3438498.html
Sent from the jOrgan - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Graham Goode
2011-04-09 16:13:40 UTC
Permalink
I'm with Jacques on this one. I as the disposition creator would like
the freedom to place these setters where I think they'll look best &
in the style that I want them to be. Give us a few months of skin
development and I think you'll see what I mean :)

GrahamG
Post by Sven Meier
Hi Marco,
 R&C should be on the jOrgan GUI and modifiable from there NOT installed
individually on each  and every disposition
Not at all my opinion !
R&C should continue to be installed and settable individually on each  and
every disposition
according to one's moods and tastes or circumstances and also according to
each loaded disposition.
A disposition creator should make sure the sf2 file is adapted to be able to
respond to the R&C, I agree,
but most often, the appropriate values of R&C (and Gain)  must be adjusted
and fine tuned on the console by the user according to his installation and
his tastes.
Jacques
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 4:14 PM
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] R: latency - how to use asio4all insteadof
fluidsynth
Hi Sven, (& John & Roy),
I certainly DO want the Reverb and Chorus. I DO! I DO! I DO!!!
My point, which I think you did grasp, thankfully, is that R&C should be
on
the jOrgan GUI and modifiable from there NOT installed individually on
each
and every disposition. There is no point in the latter. It inflates the
size
of the VPO unnecessarily, (me thinks)!
R&C are features "common to all" and should be turned on or off or changed
according to one's moods and tastes or circumstances irrespective which
organ is loaded. The only thing a disposition creator should do is to make
sure the sf2 file is adapted to be able to respond to the R&C by adding
the
appropriate values in the General Presets.
I hope this will be the path jOrgan development will take.
Marco
--
http://jorgan.999862.n4.nabble.com/ANN-jOrgan-3-13-beta-6-for-Windoze-64-tp3434940p3438498.html
Sent from the jOrgan - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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It's a major breakthrough. An authentic gaming
smartphone on the nation's most reliable network.
And it wants your games.
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Roy Radford
2011-04-09 23:40:48 UTC
Permalink
Hi, John,

             I feel you still ducked the original question but your reply intrigues me for several reasons:

 I use EAX as my main reverb system all the time but I've never heard of AUP... Please enlighten!  

   EAX only works with Creative Labs soundcards. The Soundblaster Live! 24 External I use is looking a bit dated now and most current Creative cards I've seen don't have facilities for loading soundfonts. Am I  lagging sadly behind the times here?

     Have fun,

         Roy.


--- On Sat, 9/4/11, John Beach <***@fairpoint.net> wrote:

From: John Beach <***@fairpoint.net>
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] R: latency - how to use asio4all insteadoffluidsynth
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Date: Saturday, 9 April, 2011, 19:05



Roy, I use soundfonts that are all additive synthesis, some are recorded
from a jOrgan Synthesizer I made and others are produced using Wave Generator
and tweaking the samples afterward.  The fact is that the Creative Sound
dispositions sound infinitely better than Fluidsynth and I don’t really
understand why except that with Creative Sound I have the advantage of the EAX,
AUP Reverb choices which are simply outstanding but which also can allow me the
choice of having the same soundfont sound just like a Hammond organ in an
acoustically “dead” environment and also allow it to sound nearly as good as a
pipe organ in a cathedral.  I don’t understand how electronics manipulated
to do effectively the same thing in two different applications can achieve such
starkly contrasting results.   It is a puzzle. 
 
John


 

From: Roy Radford
Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 10:00 AM
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net

Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] R: latency - how to use asio4all
insteadoffluidsynth
 




   Hi,
John,

                
Agreed, but it doesn't really address the question of whether the
artificial environment should be part of jOrgan or the individual
dispositions.

      Have
fun,

         
Roy.


--- On Sat, 9/4/11, John Beach
<***@fairpoint.net> wrote:


From:
John Beach <***@fairpoint.net>
Subject: Re:
[jOrgan-user] R: latency - how to use asio4all instead
offluidsynth
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Date: Saturday,
9 April, 2011, 14:24





The inherent problem with electronically-generated tone is that if
it is dull and lifeless at the source (the speaker), the acoustical
environment will not help it much.
I think this is the essential difference between real wind or air
in a pipe producing a tone in a given acoustical ambience  and an
electronic, tuned oscillator circuit, amplifier and speaker 
attempting to do the same thing.  Without the Reverb and/or Chorus
capability, the electronic is pretty dull and lifeless.  The fact
is that additive synthesis on the order of the Hammond organ drawbar
type can only be made to sound realistic and good if there is a
reverberation capability with it.  Otherwise, it is pretty dull and
lifeless.
 
John Beach  


 

From: Roy Radford

Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 8:59 AM
To: wlmailhtml:/mc/compose?to=jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net

Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] R: latency - how to use asio4all
instead offluidsynth
 




Hi,
Marco,

               
I've not taken much active part in this thread because my hearing
and tastes in music would make me a poor judge of most of its
subtle points but, on a more general note:

<<I
strongly believe Chorus and Reverb should be a property of jOrgan
not the
individual organs just like reverb is an acoustic
characteristic of the
church not the instrument it
houses!>>

   An interesting and, I think,
debatable point of view. After all, a real church can't swap from
one organ to another in a few seconds. If you regularly use
several of the excellent dispos now on offer, would you want to
reset all the acoustic parameters each
time?

    Surely, to a large extent, a real
organ is designed to suit the environment it is to be used
in??


     ...Just armchair
theorising again!  


      
Have
fun,

          
Roy.



--- On Sat, 9/4/11, Marco Francesco
<***@gmail.com> wrote:


From:
Marco Francesco <***@gmail.com>
Subject: Re:
[jOrgan-user] R: latency - how to use asio4all instead of
fluidsynth
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Date:
Saturday, 9 April, 2011, 12:40


Hi John,

I was just
going to mention that . Having said that, the rank play well
with
the second soundfont! Why should its reference be
changed?

I have noticed that the output from your organs
using the latest jOrgan beta
sound very weak with a number of
ranks almost imperceptible (including the
Swell Rohrflute 8)
irrespective of which of the two soundfonts is used
for
it.

With the reverb/ chorus settings removed from
the actual interface of
jOrgan, all organs will have to
undergo upgrading since otherwise there is
no way of
adjusting the sound output and some if not most do need a bit
of
tweeking here and there eg to reduce those that are to
loud or adding a
touch of reverb to otherwise dull organs
(not that they are bad in
themselves but I love that bit of
echo that replicates the interior of a big
church or
cathedral, the natural traditional home of real organs).


Without wishing to sound too critical, this feature
change is somewhat
disappointing limiting what can be played
unless auto upgrading of VPOs or
actual laborious manual
modification is undertaken.

I strongly believe Chorus
and Reverb should be a property of jOrgan not the
individual
organs just like reverb is an acoustic characteristic of
the
church not the instrument it
houses!

Marco

--
View this message in context:
http://jorgan.999862.n4.nabble.com/ANN-jOrgan-3-13-beta-6-for-Windoze-64-tp3434940p3438336.html
Sent
from the jOrgan - User mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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PLAY
It's a major breakthrough. An authentic
gaming
smartphone on the nation's most reliable
network.
And it wants your games.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/verizon-sfdev
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xperia(TM)
PLAY
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the nation's most reliable network.
And it wants your
games.
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smartphone on the
nation's most reliable network.
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games.
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-----Inline Attachment Follows-----
John Beach
2011-04-10 01:20:39 UTC
Permalink
Roy, AUP was an environmental audio preset file extension for the Audigy series of Creative Labs soundcards. I wondered why they did not just stick to either eax or eap but I have an Audigy 2ZS, really fine soundcard and its environment audio editor used the AUP file extension.
I have an SB Live 24-bit and an X-Fi Titanium. I also have an old PC with Windows 98 that has an AWE-64 Value with a 4-watt preamp in the audio output section and it
can really make a noise!

John

From: Roy Radford
Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 7:40 PM
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Creative sound,was: R: latency - how to use asio4all insteadoffluidsynth

Hi, John,

I feel you still ducked the original question but your reply intrigues me for several reasons:

I use EAX as my main reverb system all the time but I've never heard of AUP... Please enlighten!

EAX only works with Creative Labs soundcards. The Soundblaster Live! 24 External I use is looking a bit dated now and most current Creative cards I've seen don't have facilities for loading soundfonts. Am I lagging sadly behind the times here?

Have fun,

Roy.


--- On Sat, 9/4/11, John Beach <***@fairpoint.net> wrote:


From: John Beach <***@fairpoint.net>
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] R: latency - how to use asio4all insteadoffluidsynth
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Date: Saturday, 9 April, 2011, 19:05


Roy, I use soundfonts that are all additive synthesis, some are recorded from a jOrgan Synthesizer I made and others are produced using Wave Generator and tweaking the samples afterward. The fact is that the Creative Sound dispositions sound infinitely better than Fluidsynth and I don’t really understand why except that with Creative Sound I have the advantage of the EAX, AUP Reverb choices which are simply outstanding but which also can allow me the choice of having the same soundfont sound just like a Hammond organ in an acoustically “dead” environment and also allow it to sound nearly as good as a pipe organ in a cathedral. I don’t understand how electronics manipulated to do effectively the same thing in two different applications can achieve such starkly contrasting results. It is a puzzle.

John

From: Roy Radford
Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 10:00 AM
To: wlmailhtml:/mc/compose?to=jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] R: latency - how to use asio4all insteadoffluidsynth

Hi, John,

Agreed, but it doesn't really address the question of whether the artificial environment should be part of jOrgan or the individual dispositions.

Have fun,

Roy.


--- On Sat, 9/4/11, John Beach <***@fairpoint.net> wrote:


From: John Beach <***@fairpoint.net>
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] R: latency - how to use asio4all instead offluidsynth
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Date: Saturday, 9 April, 2011, 14:24


The inherent problem with electronically-generated tone is that if it is dull and lifeless at the source (the speaker), the acoustical environment will not help it much.
I think this is the essential difference between real wind or air in a pipe producing a tone in a given acoustical ambience and an electronic, tuned oscillator circuit, amplifier and speaker attempting to do the same thing. Without the Reverb and/or Chorus capability, the electronic is pretty dull and lifeless. The fact is that additive synthesis on the order of the Hammond organ drawbar type can only be made to sound realistic and good if there is a reverberation capability with it. Otherwise, it is pretty dull and lifeless.

John Beach

From: Roy Radford
Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 8:59 AM
To: wlmailhtml:/mc/compose?to=jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] R: latency - how to use asio4all instead offluidsynth

Hi, Marco,

I've not taken much active part in this thread because my hearing and tastes in music would make me a poor judge of most of its subtle points but, on a more general note:

<<I strongly believe Chorus and Reverb should be a property of jOrgan not the
individual organs just like reverb is an acoustic characteristic of the
church not the instrument it houses!>>

An interesting and, I think, debatable point of view. After all, a real church can't swap from one organ to another in a few seconds. If you regularly use several of the excellent dispos now on offer, would you want to reset all the acoustic parameters each time?

Surely, to a large extent, a real organ is designed to suit the environment it is to be used in??


...Just armchair theorising again!


Have fun,

Roy.



--- On Sat, 9/4/11, Marco Francesco <***@gmail.com> wrote:


From: Marco Francesco <***@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] R: latency - how to use asio4all instead of fluidsynth
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Date: Saturday, 9 April, 2011, 12:40


Hi John,

I was just going to mention that . Having said that, the rank play well with
the second soundfont! Why should its reference be changed?

I have noticed that the output from your organs using the latest jOrgan beta
sound very weak with a number of ranks almost imperceptible (including the
Swell Rohrflute 8) irrespective of which of the two soundfonts is used for
it.

With the reverb/ chorus settings removed from the actual interface of
jOrgan, all organs will have to undergo upgrading since otherwise there is
no way of adjusting the sound output and some if not most do need a bit of
tweeking here and there eg to reduce those that are to loud or adding a
touch of reverb to otherwise dull organs (not that they are bad in
themselves but I love that bit of echo that replicates the interior of a big
church or cathedral, the natural traditional home of real organs).

Without wishing to sound too critical, this feature change is somewhat
disappointing limiting what can be played unless auto upgrading of VPOs or
actual laborious manual modification is undertaken.

I strongly believe Chorus and Reverb should be a property of jOrgan not the
individual organs just like reverb is an acoustic characteristic of the
church not the instrument it houses!

Marco

--
View this message in context: http://jorgan.999862.n4.nabble.com/ANN-jOrgan-3-13-beta-6-for-Windoze-64-tp3434940p3438336.html
Sent from the jOrgan - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xperia(TM) PLAY
It's a major breakthrough. An authentic gaming
smartphone on the nation's most reliable network.
And it wants your games.
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Roy Radford
2011-04-10 00:04:03 UTC
Permalink
   Just to reveal my total ignorance on this thread, what exactly IS chorus? Is it the same as Celeste, which is usually provided by adding detuned ranks?

    Contrary to another post on this subject, most electronic organs DO have chorus, but I suspect it is nothing like the chorus referred to here. It usually has a Chorus/Tremolo setting, corresponding to the Slow/Fast settings of a Leslie rotating speaker system and, as such, features a slow glide from one speed to the other, just like the inertia of a real, mechanical Leslie.

     Have fun,

        Roy.


--- On Sat, 9/4/11, Graham Harrison <***@virgin.net> wrote:

From: Graham Harrison <***@virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Fluidsynth Reverb and Chorus (was: latency - how to use asio4all instead of fluidsynth)
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Date: Saturday, 9 April, 2011, 22:07

If I might join in this discussion -  I would suggest that reverb (and
chorus - but who uses chorus anyway?) should *not* be a function of jOrgan
at all, until such times as a dedicated sampler is also an integral part of
jOrgan - which, as far as I can see, does not feature in Sven's plans.

In the meantime, the proper place for a reverb engine is within the
*sampler*, be that a Creative sound card or a software sampler such as
Fluidsynth - but not within jOrgan.

As far as sound fonts are concerned, the jOrgan "builders" should ensure
that their soundfonts are configured such that they will respond to the
reverb settings in the sampler - which probably means setting reverb = 100%
in both Instrument and Preset pools.  If the sampler is not capable of
"using" these settings, no effect will be heard.

Whether the end user chooses to use the reverb facilities provided by the
sampler software is up to him or her.  If the reverb engine built into the
sampler is deemed to be unsatisfactory (as still seems to be the case with
Fluidsynth), the end user should be looking to a hardware reverb device such
as the Lexicon, or the Creative/EMU sound card's EAX console, or to a
software solution such as Convolution reverb.  He should *not* be looking
for a solution within jOrgan.

IMHO, of course ;-)

GrahamH

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Walls" <***@gmail.com>
To: <jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 9:31 PM
Subject: [jOrgan-user] Fluidsynth Reverb and Chorus (was: latency - how to
use asio4all instead of fluidsynth)
Post by Lynn Walls
Geert,
I am so happy you said this!
The Fluidsynth "reverb" and "chorus" features are both utterly awful!  I
don't know why
anyone would use them.  I certainly don't!  However, I guess it's a matter
of taste: so I
won't criticize them further.  However, I think Sven has put in more than
enough effort to
provide the additional flexibility to adjust these properties with Console
controls.  As
they are bad enough to justify keeping them silenced in the first place, I
cannot
understand why anyone would even want to adjust them dynamically while
playing the organ.
CLW
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by orgel jeux
Marco, ( Francesco and Rizzo)
When you like the - classical - organ much, and you are in for quality
sound reproduction,
you will certainly discover, that the reverb engine of FS is far off from
quality reverbs
like they can befound for instance in the SB EAX, or a Lexicon hardware
unit for instance.
I for myself woulf find it not a tribute to the efforts that people like
Bernd, John Beach
and others put in their deliberate construction of their samplesets to
flood them with the
"toy quality" reverb form FS.  This reverb was not made for careful
reproduction of
church acoustics.
It is only appropriate for gioving pop or synth sounds some space
awareness.
And Chorus we do not need at all, as the initial quality of the samples,
tuning
instabilities etc give you the real thing. A real pipe does not have
Chorus.......
Why, will people ask, do I always feel the need to talk like this??  Its
because of the
love for the organ sound, that has this 'king of instruments"
possibilities, and just
because of that, can only be served with quality reverb......
Pls compare a good sampleset with eventually a good quality reverb added
( or perhaps  a
recorded sampleset inclusive the original acoustics) with the FS reverb.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xperia(TM) PLAY
It's a major breakthrough. An authentic gaming
smartphone on the nation's most reliable network.
And it wants your games.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/verizon-sfdev
_______________________________________________
jOrgan-user mailing list
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jorgan-user
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3561 - Release Date: 04/09/11
06:34:00
Lynn Walls
2011-04-10 00:16:24 UTC
Permalink
John Beach
2011-04-10 01:43:09 UTC
Permalink
Controller 93 is chorus which technically with General Midi soundbanks adds a very small amount of chorus effect, that scintillating, minute detuning which causes a wavering of the otherwise-stable tuning at pitch of a given note’s frequency. Controller 94 is the Celeste effect which detunes a signal so that it creates a celeste effect. This is not done in the same manner that it is done in pipe organs or electronic organs where two sound sources exist at the same basic pitch and one of them is slightly detuned to create a celeste effect. Again, unless the soundbank presets are specifically configured to a chorus or celeste value in the Effects section of Vienna Soundfont Editor, you won’t notice much or any change if you vary the amount of Chorus or Celeste (or Reverb) in a music sequencer program, or jOrgan, which allows you to adjust those effects parameters.

John

From: Roy Radford
Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 8:04 PM
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Fluidsynth Reverb and Chorus (was: latency - howto use asio4all instead of fluidsynth)

Just to reveal my total ignorance on this thread, what exactly IS chorus? Is it the same as Celeste, which is usually provided by adding detuned ranks?

Contrary to another post on this subject, most electronic organs DO have chorus, but I suspect it is nothing like the chorus referred to here. It usually has a Chorus/Tremolo setting, corresponding to the Slow/Fast settings of a Leslie rotating speaker system and, as such, features a slow glide from one speed to the other, just like the inertia of a real, mechanical Leslie.

Have fun,

Roy.


--- On Sat, 9/4/11, Graham Harrison <***@virgin.net> wrote:


From: Graham Harrison <***@virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Fluidsynth Reverb and Chorus (was: latency - how to use asio4all instead of fluidsynth)
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Date: Saturday, 9 April, 2011, 22:07


If I might join in this discussion - I would suggest that reverb (and
chorus - but who uses chorus anyway?) should *not* be a function of jOrgan
at all, until such times as a dedicated sampler is also an integral part of
jOrgan - which, as far as I can see, does not feature in Sven's plans.

In the meantime, the proper place for a reverb engine is within the
*sampler*, be that a Creative sound card or a software sampler such as
Fluidsynth - but not within jOrgan.

As far as sound fonts are concerned, the jOrgan "builders" should ensure
that their soundfonts are configured such that they will respond to the
reverb settings in the sampler - which probably means setting reverb = 100%
in both Instrument and Preset pools. If the sampler is not capable of
"using" these settings, no effect will be heard.

Whether the end user chooses to use the reverb facilities provided by the
sampler software is up to him or her. If the reverb engine built into the
sampler is deemed to be unsatisfactory (as still seems to be the case with
Fluidsynth), the end user should be looking to a hardware reverb device such
as the Lexicon, or the Creative/EMU sound card's EAX console, or to a
software solution such as Convolution reverb. He should *not* be looking
for a solution within jOrgan.

IMHO, of course ;-)

GrahamH

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Walls" <wlmailhtml:/mc/compose?to=***@gmail.com>
To: <wlmailhtml:/mc/compose?to=jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 9:31 PM
Subject: [jOrgan-user] Fluidsynth Reverb and Chorus (was: latency - how to
use asio4all instead of fluidsynth)
Post by Lynn Walls
Geert,
I am so happy you said this!
The Fluidsynth "reverb" and "chorus" features are both utterly awful! I
don't know why
anyone would use them. I certainly don't! However, I guess it's a matter
of taste: so I
won't criticize them further. However, I think Sven has put in more than
enough effort to
provide the additional flexibility to adjust these properties with Console
controls. As
they are bad enough to justify keeping them silenced in the first place, I
cannot
understand why anyone would even want to adjust them dynamically while
playing the organ.
CLW
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by orgel jeux
Marco, ( Francesco and Rizzo)
When you like the - classical - organ much, and you are in for quality
sound reproduction,
you will certainly discover, that the reverb engine of FS is far off from
quality reverbs
like they can befound for instance in the SB EAX, or a Lexicon hardware
unit for instance.
I for myself woulf find it not a tribute to the efforts that people like
Bernd, John Beach
and others put in their deliberate construction of their samplesets to
flood them with the
"toy quality" reverb form FS. This reverb was not made for careful
reproduction of
church acoustics.
It is only appropriate for gioving pop or synth sounds some space
awareness.
And Chorus we do not need at all, as the initial quality of the samples,
tuning
instabilities etc give you the real thing. A real pipe does not have
Chorus.......
Why, will people ask, do I always feel the need to talk like this?? Its
because of the
love for the organ sound, that has this 'king of instruments"
possibilities, and just
because of that, can only be served with quality reverb......
Pls compare a good sampleset with eventually a good quality reverb added
( or perhaps a
recorded sampleset inclusive the original acoustics) with the FS reverb.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xperia(TM) PLAY
It's a major breakthrough. An authentic gaming
smartphone on the nation's most reliable network.
And it wants your games.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/verizon-sfdev
_______________________________________________
jOrgan-user mailing list
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jorgan-user
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3561 - Release Date: 04/09/11
06:34:00


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xperia(TM) PLAY
It's a major breakthrough. An authentic gaming
smartphone on the nation's most reliable network.
And it wants your games.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/verizon-sfdev
_______________________________________________
jOrgan-user mailing list
wlmailhtml:/mc/compose?to=jOrgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jorgan-user




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xperia(TM) PLAY
It's a major breakthrough. An authentic gaming
smartphone on the nation's most reliable network.
And it wants your games.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/verizon-sfdev


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roy Radford
2011-04-10 00:30:15 UTC
Permalink
   Thanks, Lynn,

                        As I suspected, it is nothing like the meaning given to the term in the electronic organ world

    I wonder, though, just how different the effects would sound to the non-discerning listener, e.g. ME  

   Electronic organs sometimes boast a "multi-tremolo" effect. Suppose the Celeste effect had SEVERAL detuned ranks. Would that amount to the same thing?

   Have fun,

       Roy.


--- On Sun, 10/4/11, Lynn Walls <***@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Lynn Walls <***@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Fluidsynth Reverb and Chorus (was: latency - how to use asio4all instead of fluidsynth)
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Roy Radford
2011-04-10 08:26:47 UTC
Permalink
Hi, John,

                 Thanks for the info, you learn something new every day.

   I don't normally use soundfonts now I have the Edirol SD-20s, except to test things for other people. Most of the time that means Fluidsynth rather than hardware, so I'm a bit out of touch.

   The Live 24! card comes with Windows drivers which cover all functions the card provides but in Ubuntu you rely on the Asio drivers. These make the basic sound function work but, so far as I know, don't provide any mechanism for loading soundfonts into the card. I don't know whether Sven's Creative extension does so in the Ubuntu version.
John Beach
2011-04-10 12:11:16 UTC
Permalink
Roy, Yes, there are different versions of the X-Fi cards and I believe most of them except the cheapest do have soundfont capability. If you installed all the firmware that was on the installation disk that came with the soundcard, you should be able to click on Creative in Start>All Programs>Creative and find out if you have a Soundfont Bank Manager installed. Bringing it up will allow you to set the Memory Cache for Soundfont allocation and which Synth A or B you wish to use. Bank One should have a General Midi synth loaded by default and if you want to use Creative Sound with jOrgan, which really sounds far better than Fluidsynth, you can do that in jOrgan, setting the Bank number in which to load the soundfont and then look in the Creative Soundfont Bank Manager to confirm that it did load it exactly as you want. As there is a polyphony limitation in Creative Sound, you should unload the General Midi Soundbank in order to avoid spurious General Midi Sounds being heard during .mid file playback. I find that decent full organ sounds can be attained even with the polyphony limitations that differ from Fluidsynth’s.

John

From: Roy Radford
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2011 4:26 AM
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Creative sound.

Hi, John,

Thanks for the info, you learn something new every day.

I don't normally use soundfonts now I have the Edirol SD-20s, except to test things for other people. Most of the time that means Fluidsynth rather than hardware, so I'm a bit out of touch.

The Live 24! card comes with Windows drivers which cover all functions the card provides but in Ubuntu you rely on the Asio drivers. These make the basic sound function work but, so far as I know, don't provide any mechanism for loading soundfonts into the card. I don't know
Roy Radford
2011-04-10 08:39:29 UTC
Permalink
Thanks, John, that's the second time you've furthered my education this morning!  


     Have fun,

         Roy.


--- On Sun, 10/4/11, John Beach <***@fairpoint.net> wrote:

From: John Beach <***@fairpoint.net>
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Fluidsynth Reverb and Chorus (was: latency - howto use asio4all instead of fluidsynth)
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Date: Sunday, 10 April, 2011, 2:43



Controller 93 is chorus which technically with General Midi soundbanks adds
a very small amount of chorus effect, that scintillating, minute detuning which
causes a wavering of the otherwise-stable tuning at pitch of a given
note’s  frequency.  Controller 94 is the Celeste effect which detunes
a signal so that it creates a celeste effect.  This is not done in the same
manner that it is done in pipe organs or electronic organs where two sound
sources exist at the same basic pitch and one of them is slightly detuned to
create a celeste effect.   Again, unless the soundbank presets are
specifically configured to a chorus or celeste value in the Effects section of
Vienna Soundfont Editor, you won’t notice much or any change if you vary the
amount of Chorus or Celeste (or Reverb)  in a music sequencer program, or
jOrgan, which allows you to adjust those effects parameters.
 
John


 

From: Roy Radford
Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 8:04 PM
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net

Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Fluidsynth Reverb and Chorus (was:
latency - howto use asio4all instead of fluidsynth)
 




   Just to reveal my total ignorance on this
thread, what exactly IS chorus? Is it the same as Celeste, which is
usually provided by adding detuned ranks?

   
Contrary to another post on this subject, most electronic organs DO have
chorus, but I suspect it is nothing like the chorus referred to here. It
usually has a Chorus/Tremolo setting, corresponding to the Slow/Fast
settings of a Leslie rotating speaker system and, as such, features a slow
glide from one speed to the other, just like the inertia of a real,
mechanical Leslie.

     Have
fun,

        Roy.
Roy Radford
2011-04-10 13:08:57 UTC
Permalink
Thanks, John, I'll give that a go later. At present the cards are not installed in any computer but that's soon remedied!

     Have fun,

         Roy.

--- On Sun, 10/4/11, John Beach <***@fairpoint.net> wrote:

From: John Beach <***@fairpoint.net>
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Creative sound.
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Date: Sunday, 10 April, 2011, 13:11



Roy,  Yes, there are different versions of the X-Fi cards and I
believe most of them except the cheapest do have soundfont capability.  If
you installed all the firmware that was on the installation disk that came with
the soundcard, you should be able to click on Creative in Start>All
Programs>Creative and find out if you have a Soundfont Bank Manager
installed.  Bringing it up will allow you to set the Memory Cache for
Soundfont allocation and which Synth A or B  you wish to use.  Bank
One should have a General Midi synth loaded by default and if you want to use
Creative Sound with jOrgan, which really sounds far better than Fluidsynth, you
can do that in jOrgan, setting the Bank number in which to load the
soundfont  and then look in the Creative Soundfont Bank Manager to confirm
that it did load it exactly as you want.  As there is a polyphony
limitation in Creative Sound, you should unload the General Midi Soundbank in
order to avoid spurious General Midi Sounds being heard during .mid file
playback.  I find that decent full organ sounds can be attained even with
the polyphony limitations that differ from Fluidsynth’s.
 
John


 

From: Roy Radford
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2011 4:26 AM
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net

Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Creative sound.
 




Hi,
John,

                
Thanks for the info, you learn something new every
day.

   I don't normally use soundfonts now I have the
Edirol SD-20s, except to test things for other people. Most of the time
that means Fluidsynth rather than hardware, so I'm a bit out of
touch.

   The Live 24! card comes with Windows drivers
which cover all functions the card provides but in Ubuntu you rely on the
Asio drivers. These make the basic sound function work but, so far as I
know, don't provide any mechanism for loading soundfonts into the card. I
don't know whether Sven's Creative extension does so in the Ubuntu
version.
unknown
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
Permalink
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Thank you for all the interesting comments.



By the way I’ve now noticed that the latency in Silbermann FrauenKirche and
Sophienkirche (but not Dorff) are present only when I switch on the flexible
wind. Otherwise no latency is noticeable, as in Dorff (no latency with or
without activation of flexible wind).



I’m also very interested in what John Beach writes about Creative. It is a
sound card or a software that I can utilize with my Realtek sound card?



Thank you all for the attention



Marco Rizzo

Tel 335 7164517

_____

Da: orgel jeux [mailto:***@gmail.com]
Inviato: venerdì 8 aprile 2011 22.59
A: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Oggetto: Re: [jOrgan-user] R: latency - how to use asio4all instead
offluidsynth



Marco,

We use FS as a software syntheszer, whch is very usable for us, but it does
not use ASIO drivers, but Direct Sound.

ASIO4ALL is only a ASIO driver; it needs a soft-or hardware audio device.

The latency in the Silbermann is not particularly higher than in other
models; the model that needs the most resources is the Sagrada from Bernd.

It is just a matter of what soundcard or device you use, and what are the PC
specs. I can play them with 4 to 6 buffers of 256 bit/s which gives a very
playable short latency.

So pls find out how low you can go on your system with amount of buffers and
buiffersize, as they are the parameters that will influence your latency.

My own experie3nce is, that the sound device has more influence on buffer
settings than the processor speed. I would recommend a good quality external
( USB of Firewire) or PCI ( internal) sound device.


Greetings,

Geert

2011/4/8 Marco Rizzo <***@libero.it>

Dear sirs,



first of all I would like to thank all the developers
that allowed all of us to enjoy jOrgan. I am not a professional organist but
I’ve had the opportunity to play many different and beautiful organs in this
way.



In some cases fluidsynt presents some latency (specifically I have noted it
with the Silbermann Frauenkirche). It is my understanding that using a
device different from fluidsynth, like asio4all or other, we can strongly
reduce this problem. Can you please let me know were I can find simple
instructions to “substitute” asio4all (or other free device) to fluidsynth?



I am not a computer expert either, I can just add that my computer is 4GB
rom, running on XP pro.





Thank you very much for your kind help



Best regards



Marco Rizzo




----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Xperia(TM) PLAY
It's a major breakthrough. An authentic gaming
smartphone on the nation's most reliable network.
And it wants your games.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/verizon-sfdev
_______________________________________________
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Verdana><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>Thank you for all the
interesting comments.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Verdana><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Verdana><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>By the way I&#8217;ve
now noticed that the latency in Silbermann FrauenKirche and Sophienkirche (but
not Dorff) are present only when I switch on the flexible wind. Otherwise no
latency is noticeable, as in Dorff (no latency with or without activation of
flexible wind).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Verdana><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Verdana><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>I&#8217;m also very
interested in what John Beach writes about Creative. It is a sound card or a
software that I can utilize with my Realtek sound card?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Verdana><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Verdana><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>Thank you all for the
attention<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Verdana><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=MsoNormal><st1:PersonName ProductID="Marco Rizzo" w:st="on"><font
size=3 color=navy face=Verdana><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:navy'>Marco Rizzo</span></font></st1:PersonName><font color=navy><span
style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>Tel 335 7164517</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>Da:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> orgel jeux
[mailto:***@gmail.com] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Inviato:</span></b> venerdì 8 aprile 2011
22.59<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>A:</span></b>
jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Oggetto:</span></b> Re: [jOrgan-user] R:
latency - how to use asio4all instead offluidsynth</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Marco,<br>
<br>
We use FS as a software syntheszer, whch is very usable for us, but it does not
use ASIO drivers, but Direct Sound.<br>
<br>
ASIO4ALL is only a ASIO driver; it needs a soft-or hardware audio device.<br>
<br>
The latency in the Silbermann is not particularly higher than in other models;
the model that needs the most resources is the Sagrada from Bernd.<br>
<br>
It is just a matter of what soundcard or device you use, and what are the PC
specs.&nbsp; I can play them with 4 to 6 buffers of 256 bit/s which gives a
very playable short latency.<br>
<br>
So pls find out how low you can go on your system with amount of buffers and
buiffersize, as they are the parameters that will influence your latency.<br>
<br>
My own experie3nce is, that the sound device has more influence on buffer
settings than the processor speed. I would recommend a good quality external (
USB of Firewire) or PCI ( internal) sound device.<br>
<br>
<br>
Greetings,<br>
<br>
Geert<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>2011/4/8 <st1:PersonName ProductID="Marco Rizzo" w:st="on">Marco Rizzo</st1:PersonName>
&lt;<a href="mailto:***@libero.it">***@libero.it</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<div link=blue vlink=blue>

<div>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Verdana><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:navy'>Dear sirs,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Verdana><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Verdana><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:navy'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></font><font size=2 color=navy face=Verdana><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>first of all I would
like to thank all the developers that allowed all of us to enjoy jOrgan. I am
not a professional organist but I&#8217;ve had the opportunity to play many
different and beautiful organs in this way.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Verdana><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Verdana><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>In some cases fluidsynt presents some latency
(specifically I have noted it with the Silbermann Frauenkirche). It is my
understanding that using a device different from fluidsynth, like asio4all or
other, we can strongly reduce this problem. Can you please let me know were I
can find simple instructions to &#8220;substitute&#8221; asio4all (or other free
device) to fluidsynth?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Verdana><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Verdana><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>I am not a computer expert either, I can just
add that my computer is 4GB rom, running on XP pro.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Verdana><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Verdana><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Verdana><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>Thank you very much for your kind help</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Verdana><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Verdana><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>Best regards</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Verdana><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><st1:PersonName
ProductID="Marco Rizzo" w:st="on"><font size=3 color=navy face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>Marco Rizzo</span></font></st1:PersonName><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

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face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
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------=_NextPart_000_015B_01CBF7AD.409831B0--
Panos Ghekas
2011-04-10 19:49:44 UTC
Permalink
Indeed I agree with Jacques here....
Marco,
80% at home is too much.... You must not hearing any dry sound at all...I usualy set in my dispos 20 ~ 21% and feels like a chapel/small church environment, but given that room is abour 60~62 and in sf2 (with Viena) I set 100% send !
Also, one must test spending hours its church's acoustics and set jOrgan's disposition's reverb accordingly. Like any user can adjust at home.
So, as it is, is good now. We must work on those new features and make more tests and of course a lot playing to get solid results.
Anyway, eitherway,Have fun !Your friendPanos
  R&C should be on the jOrgan GUI and modifiable from there NOT installed
individually on each  and every disposition
Not at all my opinion !
R&C should continue to be installed and settable individually on each  and
every disposition
according to one's moods and tastes or circumstances and also according to
each loaded disposition.

A disposition creator should make sure the sf2 file is adapted to be able to
respond to the R&C, I agree,
but most often, the appropriate values of R&C (and Gain)  must be adjusted
and fine tuned on the console by the user according to his installation and
his tastes.

Jacques
Marco Francesco
2011-04-10 23:30:37 UTC
Permalink
Panos,

I do not like anything dry!

I do like that deep haunting echo of a huge Cathedral that permeates the
spirit! The sound of an organ in a carpeted sitting room is bereft of that
ethereal feeling.

Ta Leme!
Marco
Post by Panos Ghekas
80% at home is too much.... You must not hearing any dry sound at all...I
usualy set in my dispos 20 ~ 21% and feels like a chapel/small church
environment, but given that room is abour 60~62 and in sf2 (with Viena) I
set 100% send !
Also, one must test spending hours its church's acoustics and set jOrgan's
disposition's reverb accordingly. Like any user can adjust at home.
So, as it is, is good now. We must work on those new features and make
more tests and of course a lot playing to get solid results.
Anyway, eitherway,Have fun !Your friendPanos
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Panos Ghekas
2011-04-10 20:19:27 UTC
Permalink
Agree with Lyn here,
Gain in FS is like Master output on a studio console. We set it to 0db and then we play with sliders and we set as we want.
So, I always create cc11 & cc4 (my pedals sendings) and cc7 if I want an on console general volume control.
Panos

--- Óôéò ÓÜâ., 09/04/11, ï/ç Lynn Walls <***@gmail.com> Ýãñáøå:
And before someone makes the suggestion: we do NOT need a jOrgan "gain" element that can
be placed on a Console.  Re-setting the gain value occasionally in Construct mode provides
more than adequate flexibility for this adjustment.  Dynamic variation of sound level
during playing is what the existing CC 7 and CC 11 MIDI controls are for (via the
Continuous Filter element).

CLW
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Panos Ghekas
2011-04-10 20:33:07 UTC
Permalink
Guys,
 Chorus is needed in jOrgan -FS as we can use it on Rhodes and other El.Piano models but also in very static sounding ranks on Theater organs.Also some synthesizer pads beneffit from chorus too.
In my Midigers I have set chorus , at low levels of course and give a kinda move on digital pipe sound. Bernd's tracAct technique is based on a chorus like effect but more alive and random.
I believe someday we must have this tracAct feature as permanent to jOrgan/FS versions, unless we create with real pipe samples.
Just thinkin'....Panos

--- Óôéò Êõñ., 10/04/11, ï/ç Roy Radford <***@yahoo.co.uk> Ýãñáøå:

Áðü: Roy Radford <***@yahoo.co.uk>
ÈÝìá: Re: [jOrgan-user] Fluidsynth Reverb and Chorus (was: latency - how to use asio4all instead of fluidsynth)
Ðñïò: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Çìåñïìçíßá: ÊõñéáêÞ, 10 Áðñßëéïò 2011, 0:30

   Thanks, Lynn,

                        As I suspected, it is nothing like the meaning given to the term in the electronic organ world

    I wonder, though, just how different the effects would sound to the non-discerning listener, e.g. ME  

   Electronic organs sometimes boast a "multi-tremolo" effect. Suppose the Celeste effect had SEVERAL detuned ranks. Would that amount to the same thing?

   Have fun,

       Roy.


--- On Sun, 10/4/11, Lynn Walls <***@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Lynn Walls <***@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Fluidsynth Reverb and Chorus (was: latency - how to use asio4all instead of fluidsynth)
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
John Reimer
2011-04-10 21:08:54 UTC
Permalink
Can Bernd or someone else please describe for us just what this "tracAct
technique" is?

John Reimer
Post by Panos Ghekas
Bernd's tracAct technique is based on a chorus like effect but more alive
and random.
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Panos Ghekas
2011-04-10 21:36:36 UTC
Permalink
Hi John !
I just tried to explain how it felt here when Bernd released for a short time and only for us his Alpha version with this feature.
Here it worked from the start. It's like a slight detune on a given pipe sound but randomly, like the effect the air flowing in real pipe does. I must admit I still use for my pleasure his Alpha version with 3.12.3(x64). A raw power model, but great IMHO...
I hope to see it again in Sargada.......
But above all Bernd himself can tell us more on this no doubt and in deep.
BestPanos

--- Óôéò Êõñ., 10/04/11, ï/ç John Reimer <***@exemail.com.au> Ýãñáøå:

Áðü: John Reimer <***@exemail.com.au>
ÈÝìá: Re: [jOrgan-user] Fluidsynth Reverb and Chorus (was: latency - how to use asio4all instead of fluidsynth)
Ðñïò: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Çìåñïìçíßá: ÊõñéáêÞ, 10 Áðñßëéïò 2011, 21:08



Can Bernd or someone else please describe for us just what this "tracAct
technique" is?

John Reimer
Post by Panos Ghekas
Bernd's tracAct technique is based on a chorus like effect but more alive
and random.
--
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Panos Ghekas
2011-04-10 23:43:20 UTC
Permalink
" ÐÅÑÉ ÏÑÅÎÅÙÓ ÏÕÄÅÉÓ ËÏÃÏÓ "
is the Ancient Hellenic (or Greek for the many...) equivalent of the Latin proverb you enjoyfully posted dear Marco !
I think the Hellenic came before the Roman one, but maybe not, traces lost in ancient world and also these two cultures after 100BC went mixed anyway....
Shure we must not discuss taste but still ........ FS' reverb and chorus are awfull 
And it is not the opinion of the many, but the one of the experts, to be in accordance with Socrates' teaching.....
But, still, eitherway we have funPanos

--- Óôéò Êõñ., 10/04/11, ï/ç Marco Francesco <***@gmail.com> Ýãñáøå:In Latin a proverb goes something like this: "De gostibus non disputandum
est" or something to that effect ie you cannot discuss tastes (each to his
own).
Marco Francesco
2011-04-10 23:52:34 UTC
Permalink
Panos,

If we got by that Socrates' quotation, we would not have democracy... and
there won't be much fun either!

Marco
" ΠΕΡΙ ΟΡΕΞΕΩΣ ΟΥΔΕΙΣ ΛΟΓΟΣ "
is the Ancient Hellenic (or Greek for the many...) equivalent of the Latin
proverb you enjoyfully posted dear Marco !
I think the Hellenic came before the Roman one, but maybe not, traces lost
in ancient world and also these two cultures after 100BC went mixed
anyway....
Shure we must not discuss taste but still ........ FS' reverb and chorus are awfull 
And it is not the opinion of the many, but the one of the experts, to be
in accordance with Socrates' teaching.....
But, still, eitherway we have funPanos
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Roy Radford
2011-04-10 23:57:46 UTC
Permalink
<<In Latin a proverb goes something like this: "De gostibus non disputandum
est" or something to that effect ie you cannot discuss tastes (each to his
own).>>

   ...Meanwhile, I believe, the French get rheumatism in their feet!  


     Have fun,

          Roy.


--- On Mon, 11/4/11, Marco Francesco <***@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Marco Francesco <***@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Fluidsynth Reverb and Chorus (was: latency - how to use asio4all instead of fluidsynth)
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Date: Monday, 11 April, 2011, 0:17

Lynn,

In Latin a proverb goes something like this: "De gostibus non disputandum
est" or something to that effect ie you cannot discuss tastes (each to his
own).

As for adjusting them dynamically whilst playing.... that was never my
intention. It's like saying something highly stupid like wanting to change
the church to alter the acoustic effects whilst performing the Toccata and
Fugue in D minor. Bizarre at best!

What I would like is to be able to adjust the settings whilst hearing the
effect I desire to achieve. Going in and out of construct mode is a pretty
clumsy and time consuming way of doing things (especially with so many
settings ie 9 in all: 4 for Chorus; 4 for Reverb and another one for Gain).

For this reason alone I intend hanging on tight to jOrgan 3.11.1 where
"live" adjustment is possible. This does not mean I do not look forward to
or use more recent versions of jOrgan. Far from it. Indeed for playing in
Church, I am almost invariably using 3.12.3 (64x) and I have been providing
much feedback on the latest 3.13 betas.

So Lynn, please, before you hurl cream pies and tomatoes at me, do try to
understand first what I'm trying to say! I am not be as eloquent as you (
[cough]) or clear at times....
Post by Lynn Walls
The Fluidsynth "reverb" and "chorus" features are both utterly awful!  I
don't know why
anyone would use them.  I certainly don't!  However, I guess it's a matter
of taste: so I
won't criticize them further.  However, I think Sven has put in more than
enough effort to
provide the additional flexibility to adjust these properties with Console
controls.  As
they are bad enough to justify keeping them silenced in the first place, I
cannot
understand why anyone would even want to adjust them dynamically while
playing the organ.
CLW
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Roy Radford
2011-04-11 00:01:48 UTC
Permalink
  Ah, but he had a way with women!

     Have fun,

         Roy.

--- On Mon, 11/4/11, Marco Francesco <***@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Marco Francesco <***@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] FS or not FS
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Date: Monday, 11 April, 2011, 0:48

Bernd,

You sound like Henry VIII! Don't you mean "Hats off"? (hehehe)
Post by BCA
Heads off, Jacques.
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Marco Francesco
2011-04-11 00:20:50 UTC
Permalink
Well.... he certainly did show them the way!
Post by Roy Radford
  Ah, but he had a way with women!
     Have fun,
         Roy.
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Panos Ghekas
2011-04-11 00:19:46 UTC
Permalink
Hmmm,
smells like politics (OT) but not so.... I think is something that affects this community too....
Do you think Socrates was not a Democratic man? (!!)Athens at that time reached the highest level of Democracy this world has seen ever !
Also is it Democracy when 10.000, lets say, people not having study a certain issue will decide for all and not giving the pass to decide to the few experts on this certain issue?One of the high levels of Democracy is to now the limits and to recognise the best or better.....

--- Óôéò Êõñ., 10/04/11, ï/ç Marco Francesco <***@gmail.com> Ýãñáøå:

Panos,

If we got by that Socrates' quotation, we would not have democracy... and
there won't be much fun either!

Marco
Marco Francesco
2011-04-11 00:31:40 UTC
Permalink
Panos,

I'll keep this short as it IS getting OT!

Everything is relative. In some issues, the experts may well be the ones
blinded (biased) by their inflated egos. We can learn a lot if we listen to
the opinion of others more even if the people expressing themselves may not
be so learned. Take proverbs: they are the fruit of the experiences of the
general, lay, humble man-in-the-street! I doubt University professors had
any say in creating any. Indeed proverbs pre-date Universities!

Marco
Post by Panos Ghekas
Hmmm,
smells like politics (OT) but not so.... I think is something that affects
this community too....
Do you think Socrates was not a Democratic man? (!!)Athens at that time
reached the highest level of Democracy this world has seen ever !
Also is it Democracy when 10.000, lets say, people not having study a
certain issue will decide for all and not giving the pass to decide to the
few experts on this certain issue?One of the high levels of Democracy is
to now the limits and to recognise the best or better.....
--
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Panos Ghekas
2011-04-11 00:34:38 UTC
Permalink
Hi Rick !
GREAT !You know I'm a confirmed Christie fanatic, so I couldn't miss the newest release.I think this is the best Christie so far, hmmm maybe from the times of 3.10 model... anyway
All work OK here, the sound is sweet and in HQ, shortcuts work and help a lot in a model with many many stops to push. I like it much. Great work on controls console.Effects settings very nice and good. Pleasing sound in my ears.Yeap, as some said new jOrgan versions look like a spacecraft, but.... I LOVE spacecrafts !!!
One problem : Full screen (F11). Being on main console hitting F11 leads me to controls console..... hmmmm I tried what Sven said about /display 1 on customize. I didn't see any such option in drop down. I had to set nothing on controls screen to get main open full with F11. The same in construction mode. No dropdown with many display numbers. Only "0"Is this a bug?
GreenFox once more sent out a winner....
CheersPanos


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Panos Ghekas
2011-04-11 00:41:02 UTC
Permalink
Ok Marco,
Indeed it is goin' way OT.... this is a philosophical discussion with many roads to examineI rest my case here (but even I believe in folk wisdom I'll choose to listen and follow the experts....).
Ah, Sven I like this list the most !It's big fun !Panos
Roy Radford
2011-04-11 00:56:43 UTC
Permalink
Hi, Marco,

               The trouble with proverbs is they come in matched pairs so, whichever way things turn out, you can always say it is according to the proverb:

Look before you leap.
He who hesitates is lost.

Too many cooks spoil the broth.
Many hands make light work.

   Etc, etc.

(BTW, NOT ect. as I often see here. Etc. is short for etcetera, meaning "And more like that." Ect, so far as I know, means Electro-Convulsive Therapy and is not relevant to organs unless you reach inside them with the power on!   )


     Have fun,

          Roy.


--- On Mon, 11/4/11, Marco Francesco <***@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Marco Francesco <***@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Fluidsynth Reverb and Chorus (was: latency - how to use asio4all instead of fluidsynth)
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Date: Monday, 11 April, 2011, 1:31

Panos,

I'll keep this short as it IS getting OT!

Everything is relative. In some issues, the experts may well be the ones
blinded (biased) by their inflated egos. We can learn a lot if we listen to
the opinion of others more even if the people expressing themselves may not
be so learned. Take proverbs: they are the fruit of the experiences of the
general, lay, humble man-in-the-street! I doubt University professors had
any say in creating any. Indeed proverbs pre-date Universities!

Marco
Post by Panos Ghekas
Hmmm,
smells like politics (OT) but not so.... I think is something that affects
this community too....
Do you think Socrates was not a Democratic man? (!!)Athens at that time
reached the highest level of Democracy this world has seen ever !
Also is it Democracy when 10.000, lets say, people not having study a
certain issue will decide for all and not giving the pass to decide to the
few experts on this certain issue?One of the high levels of Democracy is
to now the limits and to recognise the best or better.....
--
View this message in context: http://jorgan.999862.n4.nabble.com/ANN-jOrgan-3-13-beta-6-for-Windoze-64-tp3434940p3440723.html
Sent from the jOrgan - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
John Beach
2011-04-11 01:17:44 UTC
Permalink
Roy, I have the idea, given the form of the verb, that “et cetera” means “and it will be”, that is, “et”'= and “cetera” looks to be a future tense of a verb. However, I just googled it and here is the meaning. "κα᜶ τᜰ ጕτερα" and Panos can confirm this, “and the others” implying “and so forth.” It is a Greek loan to Latin. Who would have guessed?

John Beach

From: Roy Radford
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2011 8:56 PM
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] WAY OT! Fluidsynth Reverb and Chorus (was:latency - how to use asio4all instead of fluidsynth)

Hi, Marco,

The trouble with proverbs is they come in matched pairs so, whichever way things turn out, you can always say it is according to the proverb:

Look before you leap.
He who hesitates is lost.

Too many cooks spoil the broth.
Many hands make light work.

Etc, etc.

(BTW, NOT ect. as I often see here. Etc. is short for etcetera, meaning "And more like that." Ect, so far as I know, means Electro-Convulsive Therapy and is not relevant to organs unless you reach inside them with the power on! )


Have fun,

Roy.


--- On Mon, 11/4/11, Marco Francesco <***@gmail.com> wrote:


From: Marco Francesco <***@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [jOrgan-user] Fluidsynth Reverb and Chorus (was: latency - how to use asio4all instead of fluidsynth)
To: jorgan-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Date: Monday, 11 April, 2011, 1:31


Panos,

I'll keep this short as it IS getting OT!

Everything is relative. In some issues, the experts may well be the ones
blinded (biased) by their inflated egos. We can learn a lot if we listen to
the opinion of others more even if the people expressing themselves may not
be so learned. Take proverbs: they are the fruit of the experiences of the
general, lay, humble man-in-the-street! I doubt University professors had
any say in creating any. Indeed proverbs pre-date Universities!

Marco
Post by Panos Ghekas
Hmmm,
smells like politics (OT) but not so.... I think is something that affects
this community too....
Do you think Socrates was not a Democratic man? (!!)Athens at that time
reached the highest level of Democracy this world has seen ever !
Also is it Democracy when 10.000, lets say, people not having study a
certain issue will decide for all and not giving the pass to decide to the
few experts on this certain issue?One of the high levels of Democracy is
to now the limits and to recognise the best or better.....
--
View this message in context: http://jorgan.999862.n4.nabble.com/ANN-jOrgan-3-13-beta-6-for-Windoze-64-tp3434940p3440723.html
Sent from the jOrgan - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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And it wants your games.
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Panos Ghekas
2011-04-11 01:43:18 UTC
Permalink
Yeap, John it is like this more or less.
This is the crazy stuff Sven was talkin' about....
Et cetera is indeed Latin and it means as the Hellenic/Greek translation you found "and the rest" or "and the same things (would follow)" Cetera comes from Greek ETEPA with a C in front, which means other or rest, not male or female, but subjects mostly. Is not a verb though as you see.
But Yes, who would have guessed ?!It's a strange world..... as strange is jOrgan users list !
Ah, this is real fun !Panos

--- Στις Δευτ., 11/04/11, ο/η John Beach <***@fairpoint.net> έγραψε:





Roy, I have the idea, given the form of the verb, that  “et
cetera”  means “and it will be”, that is,  “et”'= and “cetera” 
looks to be a future tense of a verb.  However, I just googled it and here
is the meaning.  "κα᜶ τᜰ ጕτερα"  and Panos can confirm
this, “and the others”  implying “and so forth.”  It is a Greek loan
to Latin.  Who would have guessed? 
 
John Beach


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Marco Francesco
2011-04-11 03:28:15 UTC
Permalink
Incidentally "cetra" is an ancient (Greek) musical instrument. In one
language I know, there is an expression which has similar connotation which
translated literally would be: "and with the music of the cetra". Now I
wonder how this version would fit in with what has been said/ quoted?

Marco

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View this message in context: http://jorgan.999862.n4.nabble.com/ANN-jOrgan-3-13-beta-6-for-Windoze-64-tp3434940p3440933.html
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